Episode 12 with Ben Branam

Welcome to episode 12 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Introduction- Welcome to episode 12 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse.  This week I’m joined by self-defense instructor Ben Branam.  Hello, Ben.

Ben- Hi, Rob, Together, we’ll report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week. Our first example took  this month in Louisiana

First story-  Three men broke into a home during the early morning in Youngsville.  They fired several shots inside the home before the homeowner returned fire.  The homeowner shot one of the robbers.  The suspects then ran from the scene.  Police arrested the three at a local hospital.  The wounded criminal is expected to survive.  All three are charged with robbery and attempted murder.  There were several smash and grab robberies reported in the area during the last several days.

Ben- Time to retrieve vs locked and loaded.

The next story is from Orlando, Florida.

Second Story-  http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-fatal-gas-station-shooting-orlando-20160425-story.html

That is right, Ben.  Two men walked into a small gas station convenience store.  One was a licensed  concealed carry holder.  The second person was a repeat felon out of jail on bond with a criminal history of 30 arrests including drug possession and assault.  The felon had a handgun partially concealed in his waistband.  The two men argued and the felon drew his handgun and pointed it at the concealed carry holder.  The concealed carry holder drew and fired several times.  Each shot hit the felon.  No one else was injured.  The concealed carry holder cooperated with police and remained at the scene.  Security video and witnesses confirm the story that the felon initiated the argument.

Ben- My plan is to leave.  You know you are going to a gunfight if you’re involved, because you brought the gun.

Rob- Ben, you said something that stayed with me.  We can lose any fight we enter, and we can’t afford to lose.  Walk away unless your wife and children are at risk.

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Point Blank Range


Third story-  A family in Sacramento, California heard their dog bark as they ate, dressed, and got ready for the day.  The female homeowner heard her dog bark.  The homeowner turned around and saw a man enter their home.  She ran to her bedroom and barricaded the door with her husband and two small children inside.  The intruder tried to enter their bedroom.

The homeowner got his gun, cleared the house and found the intruder curled up in the bushes outside.  He ordered the intruder not to move.  Police arrested the man  and are conducting a mental health evaluation.

Ben- The husband and wife said they acted on instinct.  Don’t go looking for trouble.  Let the police do that.  That is what they get paid for.  They have city lawyers who will defend them.  You don’t.

Practice retreating to your safe room.

Exit- That wraps up this episode. Ben, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners find you?

Ben- They can contact me at Modern Self Protection .com  to see my class schedule and my podcast.

Rob- That reminds me.  Listeners can leave a comment on our facebook page or at self defense gun stories dot com,

I’m Rob Morse.  Please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Visit SAF.org and join today.

Episode 11 with Tatiana Whitlock

Welcome to episode 11 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Introduction- Welcome to episode 11 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse with self-defense instructor Tatiana Whitlock.  Hi, Tatiana.  

Tatiana- Hi, Rob.  Together, we report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.  

Tatiana- Our first example took place in Fresno, California.

First story-  That’s where a young man stopped at a gas station on his way to work.  He saw an older man throwing things at passing cars and shouting at other customers.  The crazy person started to approach his car and the younger man got out to ask him what was the matter.  That is when the young man saw that the crazy man had a knife.

Our driver got back in his car only seconds before the stranger stabbed the car door.  The young man presented his legally concealed firearm and pointed his gun at the attacker.  The attacker ran away.  The attacker and his knife were picked up by police a few hundred yards down the street.  He was arrested and tested for Methamphetamine.


-Question of appropriate response?

-Should he have engaged at all? Should he have asked for store manager support?  **REMEMBER – ONLY LAW ENFORCEMENT IS DUTY BOUND TO ENGAGE** 


-Fortunately, he was able to get to his vehicle while the act of being attacked presented his pistol.

He was being attacked. This was NOT brandishing. Presenting the pistol had the desired result with NO shots fired.



GAIN some experience in a training program to learn the proper and SAFE way to draw your handgun from concealment in a seated position.

Second Story- Our next story takes place in Dayton, Ohio.  A female clerk in a tanning salon watched a customer pull out his money to buy a small ring from the jewelry display.  The clerk opened her cash drawer to make change.  That is when the customer said, “I don’t want any trouble, just give me all the money.”

The clerk presented the firearm she keeps behind the counter and pointed it at the criminal.  He ran.

Police examined the surveillance video.  The thief robbed five stores that month, and three stores that same day.

Was the clerk justified to use deadly force?

Tatiana- We really need more information to make that determination correctly.  Was the robber armed? Did he display a weapon?

Did the clerk fear for her life of those of her patrons based on his behavior, presentation of a weapon, or the delivery of the demand?

-REMEMBER – every THING is replaceable. YOU are not. Insurance exists for a reason. If your life is not in danger then being an EXCELLENT witness is the best weapon there is.

-This speaks to a common training error that we see from students transitioning out of the square range and and into scenario based training exercises.

-The difference between bullseye practice and contextual real life training is all in learning how to process and make sound decisions based on what is going on around you. Square range for example = every time the gun is drawn it is going to be shot.

Simunitions or UTM training requires you to determine if the gun even the right solution to the problem at hand. HIGHLY recommend gaining some experience in a force on force program with an emphasis on threat assessment and critical decision making skills.

-Fortunately for all involved the clerk stayed in control despite the stressful nature of the experience and the crook made the good decision NOT to test her resolve.

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Point Blank Range

Third story-  A gun owner in Spokane first heard the alarming news from his son.  His son had just seen a stranger armed with a metal pole climb into their neighbor’s back yard.  The gun owner got his gun and walked next door.  The stranger was yelling and kicking at the neighbor’s back door.  The neighbor and her children were in the home at the time.

The man with the pole advanced toward the gun owner and his son and threatened to kill them.  The stranger swung the metal pole at the gun owner.  The gun owner presented his firearm and ordered the attacker to drop the pole.  The attacker sat on the lawn until police arrived.

Rob- When I read the several news stories about this incident, the attacker sounded both agitated and confused.

Tatiana- We say don’t get involved, but this man knew his neighbor.

All three stories were defensive gun use without any shots fired.  That shows good restraint under stress. Used correctly, by an individual with a cool head, the gun can effectively control a situation without shots being fired.

Exit- That wraps up this episode. Tatiana, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners learn more about you?

Tatiana- They can contact me at http://tatianawhitlock.com/ On Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/tatiana.whitlock/ And at thesear.com and On Target Magazine.

Rob- Before we close, I want to mention that Tatiana has a free video about firearms safety and storing firearms safely in your home with children.  The link is in our show notes.

Once our listeners have watched Tatiana’s video, I hope they will also give us a review on Itunes.  We post transcripts and links to these stories on our web page at self defense gun stories dot com,

I’m Rob Morse.  Please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Gun Freedom Radio

– Gun Freedom Radio Podcast-

Episode 10 with Tony Simon

Welcome to episode 10 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Introduction- Welcome to episode 10 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse back with self-defense instructor Tony Simon.  Hi Tony.  

Tony- We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.  Our first example is from Chicago.

First story-  Two men were unloading their car at the back of a Chicago alley late at night.  Both men were 23 years old.   They were interrupted by 28 year old William George who demanded their wallets and phones.  One of the young men handed over his cellphone and wallet, while the other 23-year-old pulled his licensed firearm and shot Mr. George.  The two men called for police and for medical help.  They also stayed at the scene until the police arrived.  Police said the attacker was out of jail on parole for a previous armed robbery conviction.  The young men were not charged.

Tony- Thank god the young men were in charge.  There’s been a change of thinking in Chicago about armed citizens.  I assumed when citizens in Chicago got the right to carry that there would be a lot of legal maneuvering to make it impossible any time you defend yourself.  That doesn’t seem to be the case.  In this particular case they were facing a hardened criminal.  Many people assume when someone comes to rob them that it’s just someone looking for drug money.  You know some harmless stick up kid.  Well this guy was already on parole for previous convictions.  And I’m sure that wasn’t the first time he’d robbed someone a gun point either.

Assume you’re facing a hardened criminal any time someone comes at you would have a weapon to harm you.

Rob- This criminal was a professional.

Tony- Yes some of these people are.  They’re professional criminals they want to rob you.  Some people just want to hurt other human beings.  They’re not even there to rob you.  they may want to just take your life because that’s what they do.  They pick random people and hurt them or kill them for their own entertainment.  Keep that in mind when you’re defending yourself in your home.

Rob- Tony, that’s not something that you’ve read.  You’re familiar with inmates.

Tony- I know that from firsthand experience talking to multiple inmates.  And the frightening part was the age they committed these crimes, but we’ll talk about that later.

Second Story-  Our second story is from Chattanooga, Tennessee.  It happens everywhere, but a 30 year old man met a young woman online.  They met outside her apartment just after midnight.  The couple also met a 19 year old man with a gun.  The robber demanded their money and phones.  Instead, the 30 year old man presented his firearm and shot the robber.  The man called police and remained at the scene for police to arrive.  Police did not charge the shooter and said a couple had committed four similar robberies in the last year.

Tony-  This guy was very lucky, because if you have a concealed carry permit, or if you’ve chosen to carry, then always carry.  Always be ready to protect yourself even if it’s on the first date.  There’s no such thing as a safe time to not carry your firearm.

I like listening to another podcast you’re part of.  You guys have a saying, P.O.G.O. or Pants On Gun On.  That’s really the case that all of us conceal carriers should try to work for.

Rob- But the reason these criminals set up this particular operation was because they were preying on our innocence.  We’re thinking, “Hey this person sounds interesting.  What could be safer.  Sounds like a really nice person.”  Oops, and then you find out you’re being set up for a robbery precisely because being attacked was the furthest thing from your mind.

Tony- I’ll say something about single guys.  As a single man, in this world today, as a firearms owner, you don’t want to do anything to turn a first date off and of a lot of people are turned off by concealed carry holders, by firearms, or your second man rights.  Some guys would have chosen not to carry on the first date because they didn’t want the girl they just met to think they were a gun nut.

Smart move on this man’s part.  Pants on, gun on.

Rob- Now, I don’t know how they met online, but we’ve seen similar stories from online sites like craigslist and Back Page.  Sometimes they’re selling used electronics.. and the person gets robbed.  Now, they often choose to meet at a police station, or at a large bank’s ATM where there is constant video surveillance.

Tony- I think if this guy was buying electronic equipment then he would have been more suspicious.  I think maybe this is a new scam.  Excuse me, but it’s not even a new scam.  It’s an old scam done in a new way.  They warned us about this in the early nineties while i was in the military.  Back then, people that would invite you out on a date, tell you to come pick them up in their development, and then you would get robbed.

Rob- Right.  It is an old story.  Tony, do you to talk about this with your students?

Tony- I talk about a lot of things for my students.  It just depends on the student body and what they’re interested in.  But yes, I try to get them to think.  Always think!  It’s not being paranoid.  It’s just looking out for yourself, thinking ahead.

Again, I’m former military.  Every naval regulation is written in someone’s blood, so these experiences you don’t have to pay for.  They have already been paid for it.  You just should learn from it.

Rob- Learning from other people’s experiences the cheap way to learn.

Tony- They already paid.  You should benefit from it, if you can.

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Point Blank Range

Third story-  A store clerk walked up to his cash register as the 16 year old customer put a candybar on the counter.  The customer then pulled a firearm and pointed it at the clerk demanding the money from the cash register.  The store clerk drew a gun of his own, and the young robber fled.  Police looked at the surveillance video.  The police in Des Plaines, Illinois immediately recognized the criminal and his accomplice from earlier arrests.  Police then arrested the young criminals again.

Tony- Yeah.  A sixteen year old!  Being in Trenton, New Jersey and doing what I do, working in a prison, I’m familiar with young thugs.  As I was alluding to earlier in the first story, some people will hurt you, especially at a young age, because they have no appreciation of life itself and how valuable it is.  Two of the inmates I know were under the age of eighteen when they killed someone just because they felt like it.

You and I have no idea what our attacker will look like.  But, understand one thing.  A deadly threat is exactly that, a deadly threat, and you have to treat it as such, regardless of its image.

Rob- Tony in this case, this sixteen-year-old kid was using an Airsoft pistol.  He didn’t have a live firearm.  The clerk had no way to know that.  This kid is so lucky that he didn’t get killed.

Tony- Yes, this kid might as well avoid purchasing lottery tickets as an adult because he just used up all of his luck as a sixteen-year-old.  Wow.  Yeah.  That’s crazy.  The kid could have lost his life, but again, at sixteen, he probably has no appreciation of how lucky he actually is.

Rob- If this episode has a theme, it’s that we don’t know what a threat looks like.

Tony- We never know what a threat looks like.  We don’t know what our gun fight will be like.  We don’t know where it will take place.  So keep that in mind when you practice.  Use different scenarios, different distances, weak hand, strong hand.  Work on all of them with a goal in mind that you want to be really proficient with your firearm, no matter the circumstance.

Rob- How many classes would a student work with you before you could present a firearm from concealment?

Tony- Present a firearm concealment, we try to do that the first class.  If that’s why they’re carrying, if that’s why they’re taking the class, then that’s what we work on.  You take it in small steps and you do it from the beginning until the end.

Rob- The other thing that’s amazing about this is after the clerk presented the firearm and then stopped himself as the robber turned away.

Tony- That shows discipline on his part.  I assume that shows discipline on his part.  Maybe he wasn’t prepared to pull the trigger on someone that young.  But either way it turned out well for both of them that he didn’t pull the trigger.

The clerk in this last case did not fire his firearm after the threat no longer presented itself.  He continually thought about what was going on and he called the police.  And in all three stories tonight, everyone thought the situation through.  None of the victims had the incident happened and then took off.  They called the police and they waited for the police to arrive.  They spoke to the police and annunciated what happened.  They let it be known exactly what happened in the situation so they were seen as the good guy.  They weren’t seen as someone who brandished a weapon.  And then left the scene.

One of the good parts about practicing with your firearm, is that you’re not in panic mode.  You’ve done this before and thought your way through a similar situation.  One of the things you learn in defensive training is how to think your way through a problem.  That’s what I try to stress with my students.  Always think your way through.

Practice and rehearse this in your head.  Everything from the threat.. to the presentation.  And, if you have to fire, imagine firing your gun.  Rehearse calling of the police and keeping yourself safe and secure in the area.

Rob- I asked you about training to present a firearm.  Part of your answer was, ‘I need to train you what to do with a phone if you ever have to shoot.’

Tony- You have to communicate.  You have to get the police there.  And, you have to do it in such a way that you don’t say the wrong things.  You are going to be hyper.  You’re going to have an adrenaline dump.

You just have to state the facts.  You have to say who you are.  What you’re wearing.  And what happened that you need to get the police there or need an ambulance there.  I am wearing a gray shirt and blue pants.  I’m behind this building and beside this car.   Set your firearm down when the police present themselves.. and be prepared to be thrown to the ground and cuffed when they arrive.

Don’t take it personally.  They want to keep themselves safe too.  And you just have to keep that in mind and then get up and be able to tell them exactly what happened.

Rob- Tony, this story looks simple, but it’s really very demanding.  It includes presenting from concealment.. and not shooting after the threat turns away.  It includes talking to the police.  That’s very sophisticated.  Do you think your students would do this well?

Tony- Yes, all the ones I’ve had so far.  When you speak to your students, you try to get a feel for them.  You try to find out what they think and how they think.  The way Sean and I teach classes, it’s interactive.  We want to get your input.  We just don’t preach to you.  We want to see where you’re coming from mentally so we can find out exactly how fast to go with the class.  And exactly what to speak about while we’re in that class.

When you’re talking to a student about getting into a firefight, you have to stress that during the fight, it is a fight.  But once the other person is no longer a threat, it’s no longer a fight and you have to stop.  You cannot let your ego be invested into this.  You just have to win the fight.  But, once that threat is over, you stop.  Because if you don’t turn it off like a switch, it could go from a defensive shooting.. to murder.  You have to keep that in mind.

When we have training, we tell them it’s exactly that.  It’s training.  You have to take notes.  You have to go over this material again and keep it fresh.  And yes, we like our students to take multiple classes.  Come back to us for shotgun class.  Come back to us for rifle class.  Or, take a class with someone else!

The reason I tell people to continually take classes is because you’re not going to get everything the first time.  I’ve taking multiple courses and I’ve taken notes.  Then, I’ve taken another course and I was like, “wait a minute.”  I remembered that from the last time, but I forgot to write it down.

So the information you get in a course is like drinking from a garden hose and you’re just going to have to pick up what you can.  Take the class again if you have to.  I recommend you take at least two classes a year.

Exit- That wraps up this episode. Tony Simon, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners find out more about you?

Tony- I teach firearms safety and armed-self defense courses in (what part of ) New Jersey.  Our listeners can contact me on Facebook at Simon Says Train or at The Second is for Everyone.

Rob- That reminds me.  Listeners can talk to us on our facebook page.  We post transcripts and links to these stories on our web page at self defense gun stories dot com.

I’m Rob Morse.  Please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Please join the Second Amendment Societoy at SAF.org

Episode 9 with Jenna Meek

Welcome to episode 9 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Introduction- Welcome to episode 9 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse back with self-defense instructor Jenna Meek.  Hello, Jenna.  Together, we report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Jenna – I noticed that each example has the armed victim having to shoot.  Usually the attacker will stop when a firearm is presented, but not always.  These attacks evolved too quickly for the attacker to change his mind.

Our first example took place last month at a home in Nashville, Tennessee.

First story-  A woman heard someone loudly banging at the front door of her apartment.  The resident looked through the peephole in her door, and didn’t recognize the man on the other side.  She did not open the door as the man continued to knock.  Instead, she got her gun, her phone, and retreated to her bedroom closet.  She was on the phone with police when the man broke through her front door and entered her apartment.  He then opened her bedroom door and her closet door.  That is when she shot him.  The intruder ran from the apartment and checked himself into the hospital where police were waiting for him.  The intruder was out on bond from an earlier charge of felony theft.  Police said this was clearly a case of self-defense.

Jenna- I love that the resident did not answer the door for a stranger!  She gets bonus points for retreating to the closet with a phone, and a gun and not looking for trouble.  I also wonder what might have happened if she has called out that the police were on the way before she retreated to the closet is the bad guy may have fled instead of entering the home.  Although, that seems unlikely to me since he went straight to where she was hiding instead of grabbing valuables.

Rob- turn on the porch light

Jenna- If the closet is dark, then you can see him well before he can see you.

She used a revolver so there is little chance of the firearm malfunctioning because it was caught against the coats in the closet.

(Jenna’s add: this may not actually be true, the cylinder can in fact get caught up on stuff, such as fabric and that could impede the action from working properly. We’ve seen this happen in purses with the lining getting caught in the cylinder)

The robber gave her time, thank you.  Many robbers now use a smash and grab robbery where you will only have what you carry.

Jenna- where are we going next

Second Story-  Bertha Tate lives in Chicago, and has been a victim before.  Her husband was shot and killed during a home invasion robbery that happened 65 years ago.  She has been a gun owner ever since.  She’s seen friends and relatives killed since then.  This time her son was sitting in an overstuffed chair as someone tried to break through the front window of her apartment.  The family gun was tucked into the cushions of that chair.  Anthony Tate, Bertha’s son, shot the intruder as he came through the window.

The police followed the trail of blood as the intruder ran to his getaway car at the end of the block.  They followed him as the robber check himself into the hospital emergency room with a gunshot wound to his arm.  The 36 year old criminal was expected to recover from his gunshot wound while sitting in the Cook County jail.

Jenna- Good son.  A gun not under personal control.  Bad homeowner.  Again, a 22 revolver was enough gun at that distance.

I am a big fan of using whatever you have to get the job done.  If that means you have a .22 revolver, then I suppose that is better than nothing and it seemed to stop the threat in this case.  I don’t know of any bad guys who stare down a gun and ask the defender hey, what are you about to be shot shoot with.  I am pretty sure bad guys don’t want to meet any resistance, let alone get shot with any type of gun.  Does that mean I carry a .22?  Of course not, but again, it would be better than nothing at all.

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Third story-  A 60 year old Seattle man stopped by his local 7-11 convenience store.  He nodded to the store clerk, a man about his own age, and then went off fix a cup of coffee as he did many mornings.  The customer at the coffee counter was surprised by a masked man who walked into the store and swung a hatchet at him without saying a word.  The attacker then turned his attention to the store clerk and swung at him.  The clerk was slightly injured before the coffee drinking customer drew his handgun and shot the attacker.  The customer has a licence to carry his handgun concealed.

Police spokeswoman Cindi West said  “This could have been disastrous. Had this guy not shot, who knows what would have happened? We might have a dead clerk right now, and instead we have a dead bad guy.  We consider the gun owner to be a Good Samaritan.  We do not see any wrongdoing on the part of the customer. In fact, he probably saved lives in this case.

The police had photographs of the attacker on file, so he had a police record.

Jenna, I don’t think I’ve see a hatchet used in a training example before.

Jenna- This one is pretty cut and dried.  I think is was a very good thing that permit holder was on site *and* the he was armed.  It sounds like this was his normal routine to go get coffee. I shudder to think what may have happened to the clerk if the armed civilian had decided to leave his gun behind that day for some reason.  Like we can sometimes do.

Also, we get questions from students all the time about acting on behalf of an unknown third party with deadly force.  My standard answer is that they have to know the whole story of what is going on before making the decision to act.  In this case, I think acting was the proper course of action.  Sometimes though appearances can be deceiving and we may not know the whole story.

Jenna- More likely to be attacked outside our home.

Rob- I like it that my home is a relatively safe refuge.

Jenna- I agree, but we still carry at home.

Exit- That wraps up this episode. Jenna, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners find out more about you?

Jenna- They can contact me Carry On Colorado Dot Com.  I also have my new book called “Calling the Shots” on Amazon.

Rob- That reminds me.  Listeners can talk to us on our facebook page.  We post transcripts and links to these stories on our web page at self defense gun stories dot com.

I’m Rob Morse.  Please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Join the Second Amendment Foundation at SAF.org

Episode 8 with Jeff Street

Welcome to episode 8 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Introduction- Welcome to episode 8 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse with self-defense instructor Jeff Street.  Hello, Jeff.  Together, we report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Jeff- Our first example took place last week in Indianapolis.

First story-  A female homeowner heard glass breaking just after noon.  She called her husband, grabbed her gun, and walked towards the sound which was coming from her baby’s room.  That is when an armed intruder came out of the child’s room with a gun in his hands.  The intruder fired two shots.  The homeowner returned fire and hit the intruder several times.  The entire event was over in seconds.  From there, the news isn’t clear if the intruder ran or was incapacitated at the scene.

Jeff- Why studying DGUs is so important.  Novel stimuli will get you killed because don’t have time to ponder what is happening.

Horse and rider, rider is the rational mind, and the horse is your emotional or instinctive mind.  Emotional mind vs Rational mind.  Example: when driving a car it feels unnatural to steer into a skid.

Second Story-  A male apartment resident was at home with his eight month old son.  It was just after 9pm when the occupant heard someone banging on the door and trying to get into the apartment.  The resident got his firearm and called police.  The apartment occupant repeatedly told the intruder to leave.  The occupant shot the intruder when he broke out a window and started to climb into the apartment.


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Point Blank Range

Third story-  An escaped murderer attacked a father and his 5 year old son as the two were getting into their car at four in the morning.  The attacker forced them back into their home.  The murderer tied up the husband and wife.  The husband fought with the intruder.  The husband was stabbed in the shoulder.  The wife got the family firearm from another room, returned, and shot the intruder.  The wife untied her husband.  He shot their attacker again as he moved towards them.  The couple grabbed their child and fled into the street.  Police entered the home and found the murderer dead at the scene.

Jeff: Train by relating at an emotional level and putting yourself in their position.  Then put yourself in their position with your skills and tools.  Think about how you handle the aftermath, 911. Re-holster. Arriving police. CYA can you articulate? Then think about avoidance. Civilian ROEs vs Police, Home ROE vs outside, Pre vs Post Shall issue CCW Home vs Public

Exit- That wraps up this episode. Jeff, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners find you?Jeff Street

Jeff- I teach in Naples Florida, and our listeners can find us at Step by Step Gun Training.com  We design custom training as well as offer standard group classes.

Rob- That reminds me.  Listeners can talk to us on our facebook page.  We post transcripts and links to these stories on our web page at self defense gun stories dot com,

I’m Rob Morse.  For guests and the entire crew, please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.


Episode 7 with Robyn Street

Welcome to episode 7 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Introduction- Welcome to episode 7 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse with self-defense instructor Robyn Street.  Hello, Robyn.  

Robyn- Hi, Rob.  Together, we report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.  I was struck by the similarities and differences of the three stories this week.

Rob, So you looked ahead.

Robyn, I did.  Let’s talk about these examples before we start.

Similarities: All three of these news stories took place in common places that we go every day.  (work, home and a parking lot).  We need to realize there is risk wherever we are.  We need to be prepared wherever we go.  We can do our best to minimize our risk but we cannot eliminate the risk.  We have to be prepared at all times.

In every scenario they all had quick access to their gun.

Just because you made the decision to buy a gun does not make you safe.  It is one step of many in your self defense journey.

If the attack is imminent.  The attacks are occurring right now.  If you need a gun to defend your life, you don’t have time to go home and get it out of your safe.  In each of these scenarios the people had made the decision to have quick access to their firearm.

As far as Differences: One of them actually fired the gun and the other two did not.  Once the gun was presented the attackers “changed their mind.”

I am so impressed that these armed citizens had the presence of mind and self-discipline not to shoot after the threat no longer existed.

We can’t count on the attackers changing their plan and leaving but we need to be prepared for it. (no shoot scenarios)

Rob- So you teach your students to shoot a gun.. And to not shoot a gun.

Robyn- Yes, they really need to learn both if they want to be safe AND responsible.  The attackers are proactive – they have a plan.  They had time to prepare.  As innocent individuals we are reactive – we have to quickly analyze what is happening, make a plan and enact our plan.  When seconds count … mindset training, increased awareness and that can buy us precious time.

 When we teach our classes we focus on mindset, legal issues and firearm skills.  We also encourage our students to get as much medical training as possible.  Today I really want to try to stay focused on the mindset.

We are very fortunate because we have a facility that includes a video simulator we use with our students.  The training is invaluable.

The participants are faced with real life scenarios.  They involve real life people acting out potentially dangerous situations at home, at the office, at the mall or in parking lots.

This helps our students realize that dangerous situations can occur anywhere.  They always need to be prepared.  These simulations also reinforce how little time that an armed civilian has to make decisions and gather self-defense tools.

We have had students stand and watch the entire scenario play out without moving at all.  Several of them have had the actors fire a potentially lethal shot at them.  I am telling you this not to point out their failure but to highlight how important this aspect of training is.

Rob- You want to make those mistakes in a training environment.

Robyn- Everyone in class learns from those sort of mistakes.  Those students were like a deer in car headlights.  Startled and incapable of comprehending what is occurring.  It is such a great learning tool.  Their mind did not have a parking spot for such a violent episode.  Their brain was forced to deal with a novel stimulus.  So they were stuck in a loop of this cannot be happening to me, why is this happening.  In reality it does not matter why you, why now.  It is happening and you will have to deal with it.

From that moment on they start looking at their environment very differently.  They understand the importance of awareness.  They practice making if – then decisions as they go throughout their day.

Athletes use previsualization to mentally walk through scenarios.  We need to use it too, and we can.  We can work through scenarios using a training simulator, when we watch the news, when we listen to blog episodes like this, as we just go throughout our day.  It gives us a mental workout.  Training our brains increases our awareness, it can buy us time and it lets us consider  more options on how to deal with a violent encounter.

You can’t stay in denial or panic.  You have to stay in control, make decisions, plan and act.

I also think that it is important that we practice and analyze some shoot and some no-shoot scenarios.  It is important to train with the realization that I am only going to present my firearm when I am in fear of death or great bodily harm of myself or my loved ones.  But just because I have made the decision to present my firearm does not mean that I am going to fire my gun.  It is incredibly important to stay in charge of the situation.  You have to make a critical decision, incredibly quickly in a very tense situation.

Finally, we also focus on what they need to do after the scenario.  We talk about what steps they need to take to access whether or not they are still in danger and calling the police ( if they haven’t already done so.)  We have they call the police and we interact with them in the role of the 911 operator and first responder.  We need to practice what we need to tell them and what we should not talk about until we have discussed it with our attorney.

We are incredibly fortunate to have access to the facility but you can visualize scenarios and potential decisions with a little imagination or by analyzing scenarios have occurred.  That is why I would like to focus on mindset as we look at the three scenarios today.

First story-  A man attacked in his jewelry store

Rob-  Our first example took place this month in a Los Angeles area jewelry store.  The owner was attacked after he buzzed a new customer through his locked security door and into the store.  The customer turned robber drew his firearm once he was inside.   The robber threatened the owner with a gun, but the jewelry store owner was armed as well.  The owner shot the thief.  The owner called police and remained on scene for the police to arrive.

Robyn –  I think that this shop owner had already allocated some time training his brain.

First of all, if this is a shop had he had to buzz people in.  I think that the shop owner had already decided that he was in a potentially dangerous situation.  He needed to control and be very aware of who entered his store.

You described him as being friendly.  What a great way to get a reading on who has entered the store.  While warmly greeting the person. He was free to analyze their demeanor, verbal and physical reactions.

Violent criminal actors have to be very good at selecting their victims.  They develop good skills of reading people.  We have to be committed to being equally good at reading everyone we encounter so that we can recognize when we are in danger.  You can think about it like “interviewing” everyone we encounter.

We don’t have to greet people with a suspicious interrogation.  He would not be in business very long if he did.  But we can be focused on gathering potentially crucial information while we are offering a friendly greeting.  That is good for business too.

I believe that is what allowed the shop owner to switch so quickly from being a “nice guy” to using lethal force to defend his life.

He was able to react so quickly to the bad guys proactive attack, the store owner must have had quick access to his firearm.  Its sounds like he was carrying his firearm in a holster on his body.

He had analyzed the situation, probably worked through similar scenarios and he had a gun with him.  He also had the skills necessary to safely present the firearm without hurting himself.  He was accurate enough that his first shot hit the bad guy.  We don’t know how effective his shot placement was.  But you did indicate that the bad guy was shot.

As soon as possible he needed to call 911.  (ambulance and cruiser)

So that wraps up the first example.

Second Story-  A woman attacked in her home.

Rob- In our second story, a woman was attacked in her home.  Two men in their late teens to early twenties rang the bell at her front door.  The homeowner didn’t know the men so she didn’t answer or open the door.  The two men went around to the back of the house.  They entered her screen porch and then kicked in her back door.  They intruders met the owner who was standing inside her home with her pistol pointed at the two intruders.  They ran.  Several homes were entered in a similar manner that week.

Robyn- I want to point out how important it is to make changes to your house to make it a “hard target.”  Motion sensor lights, shrubbery trimmed, locked doors etc.  Just like video training, and visualization buy us time so do locked doors.

It appears that the homeowner had thought about this.  The bad guys had to kick in the door to enter.  To me that means that she had the door locked.  Good for her.

I like the fact that she did not answer or open the door when she did not recognize them.

We don’t know how long it took for them to move around to the back door.  We do know that it was long enough for her to have her gun in hand.

You said that when they kicked in the back door she was standing there with a gun pointed at them.

If she had time to prepare, I would certainly would have suggested that she call 911. If she had even set the phone down there would be a recording of the event.  Officers would be on the way.  She would be in charge of the immediate situation but law enforcement would be on their way.

If she had time I would have suggested that she positioned herself somewhere in the house when she would have concealment or cover.  I would prefer that she position herself in a corner if possible so that no one could sneak up on her from behind.

Since we are doing down the trail of if. I would also like for her to turn off the lighting where she was and use a flashlight to illuminate the intruders.  At our house we have motion sensors on the light fixtures near the entry points.  Anyone that comes in is illuminated.  It is important to verify who is there.  If she was hidden in the dark, she could illuminate the intruders and offered verbal challenges.  Something like “The police are on their way and I have a gun.  Get out now.”

In this case, when the intruders saw the firearm they decided to change their plans.  I am glad that she was in control of the situation and did not fire a shot since the threat no longer existed.

Often we say avoid the attackers, so we ask why she didn’t run out the other door.  As you recall she was already apprehensive of the guys at the front door.  She had no idea what she would be running into. In this case, staying put and calling the police was the right thing to do.

What is our next story?

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Third story-  This happened to a 22 year old woman crossing a parking lot on the way to her car.

Robyn- Did it happen at night?

Rob- A twenty two year old woman was walking from the store to her car. Yes, Robyn, it was late at night.  A man walked up to this woman  and demanded her purse.  Two other men crossed the parking lot and the three men surrounded her.  She presented her firearm from her purse.  The three men ran.  She called police.

I am so glad we are talking about this one. Tom Givens, recently told us that parking lots are some of the most dangerous places we go.  Think about all the people that you see walking to the car with their arms full of packages or worse yet using their phone while they are digging for their keys.  Those people are completely oblivious about what is going on around them.

To be proactive I would have suggested that she could ask a store employee (security guard etc.) to walk her to her car.  Since she didn’t do that, we have a young lady walking by herself at night in a parking lot.  She was unaware of the people around her.  You said that the young man walked up to her.  Right there I think that she allowed him to get too close to her.

Rob- Ask for a grocery clerk to give her an escort to her car.

We tell people to carry a flashlight for a variety of reasons.  Even if there are lights in the parking lot a flashlight allows us to gather even more information.  It also sends a message that we are aware of our environment.  As an added bonus, for most criminals the only people they have ever seen carrying a flashlight are police officers.  Remember they were watching “interviewing” other people in the parking lot.  We want to fail their interview.  Distracted unaware people make it easier for the robbers to succeed.

If she had noticed the robbers approaching her, there is nothing wrong with giving them a strong “That is close enough with your arm extended.”  The robbers don’t want to draw attention to themselves.  If you are wrong, some stranger thinks you are a little crazy, but if you are right you might fail this interview and change their mind.

It seems obvious that did not happen since we know a man walked up to her and eventually she had three men surrounding her.  At that point she was in a terrible situation.

She did have the firearm in her purse.  As you can see this happens quickly.  She did not have time to go get anything.

When she presented the firearm they ran away.  Again, we can’t count on that reaction but when it occurs the threat no longer exists.  She had the discipline not to shoot.

It is very important that she called the police.  She needed to tell the police what happened and what she had to do.  She needed to tell the police her side of the story before someone else called them.  Other people, including the bad guys, may call with incomplete or incorrect information about the attack.  She wants to be the victim rather than the suspect when the police arrive.

There is so much to learn from each scenario but I hope that focusing on the importance of mindset and visualization will encourage our listeners to train their brain and be prepared.  Mindset is such an important component to living a prepared lifestyle.

Rob: Exit- That wraps up this episode.

Robyn, thank you for helping me today.  

Rob: Where can our listeners learn more about you?

Robyn- I teach in Naples Florida, and our listeners can find us at Step by Step Gun Training.com  We design custom training as well as offer standard group classes.

Rob- That reminds me.  Listeners can leave a comment and on our facebook page.  We received some feedback.  A listener from San Diego asked for the references for each of the stories we talk about.  If you listen to us on your cell phone, those references are included in the published cell notes on the next page of the podcast.  The links are also on our web page at self defense gun stories dot com,

I’m Rob Morse and please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 6 with David Cole

Welcome to episode 6 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.


Introduction- Welcome to episode 6 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse with self-defense instructor and handgun competitor David Cole.  Hello, David.  Together, we report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

David- Our first example took place last month in Nashville, Tennessee.

First story-  Self defense inside a gated community  It was the middle of the night when an apartment owner heard someone banging at his bedroom window.  The owner called police and picked up his pistol.  A minute later, a stranger kicked in the owner’s back door.  The owner stayed in his bedroom.  The robber came into the bedroom and the homeowner shouted for the intruder to stop.  The robber reached for his gun, and the defender shot him.  The intruder ran from the home.

The intruder had a criminal history.  He had a pistol inside the waistband of his pants.  The resident cooperated with police and is not expected to face charges.  The apartment complex is a gated community and police are trying to identify how the armed robber got inside.

Easy entry to a gated community. Concealment inside your bedroom. How long does it take to walk to another room, unlock a gun and load it. 

Cover vs concealment. Verbal warning on entry- I’ve called to police and I’m armed. 

Second Story- Saved by a good grandson with a gun–  An older woman was driven to her bank by her grandson.  The grandson parked the car, and grandma walked up to her bank ATM.  This was at 10pm.  An armed  stranger approached the older woman.  The stranger demanded the woman’s money and waved the gun close to her face.  The grandson saw the intruder, saw his gun, and stepped out of his car.   The grandson drew his own firearm.  The robber fired first.  The grandson fired second, and hit the robber.  The robber ran from the scene. All this happened in Selma, Alabama.

David, was there time to get a gun from the trunk of his car? Grandson carried concealed.  When was the grandson justified in using lethal force? When do gun owners learn to draw a concealed firearm? 

First they learn range safety, Progress to concealed carry laws, Range practice, Presentation practice, Concealed practice, Shooting while you move and think

How long would that take to learn, not to competition levels, but to present a firearm safely?

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Third story- Saved by another employee– Joseph Curry drove up to the Jacksonville, Florida landscape company where he worked.  People were running from the building yelling that another employee was shooting people inside.  Curry got out of his car and stepped into the building with his gun.  That is when Curry met the armed attacker holding a pistol in his hands.  Evidently the attacker’s gun had jammed, and the attacker was heading outside to get a baseball bat from his truck.

Curry told the attacker to drop the gun.  The attacker saw Curry’s gun.  The attacker dropped his gun and ran. Curry let him go.   The attacker was arrested by police a few blocks away.

David- No shots fired
Time to go back to his car after he saw the attacker?
When and why was Curry justified to use lethal force?
There were other employees in the building.
The defender stopped mass murder.

Exit- That wraps up this episode.  David, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners find you?

David Cole- They can contact me at Aegis Solutions, and at Blackman with a Gun.

Rob- Thank you for reminding me, Dave.  Listeners can find us and leave a comment at self defense gun stories dot com, and on our facebook page.

I’m Rob Morse and please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Second Amendment Foundation

Episode 5 with Tatiana Whitlock

Introduction-  Welcome to episode 5 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse with firearms instructor Tatiana Whitlock.  Hello, Tatiana.  Together, we bring you examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Tatiana- Our first example took place last week on the streets of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

First story- Elderly couple attacked by two men in their 20s– It was a little after 8:30 in the evening.  A 65 year old man and his wife were walking home from their business in the Queen Village neighborhood of Philadelphia.  They’ve lived there for 40 years.  The couple passed two young men on their walk.  One of the men said “What are you looking at?”  The couple stepped back, but moments later the two young men attacked them.  The old man was knocked down and kicked.  The old woman was hit as well.  From the ground, the old man drew his licensed firearm and shot his two attackers.

The elderly man was taken to the hospital with cuts and bruises on his face, head, neck and chest.  The two young men went to the hospital with gunshot wounds and are in stable condition.

Tatiana-  Disparity of force.  Mantle of innocence.  Young men were not covered with bruises.  The old man was.  Options?  The couple can’t run.

Licensed firearm increases his credibility as a law abiding person.

The defender stopped shooting when the attackers withdrew.

Rob- When would a student learn to present a firearm while he is lying on the ground?

Second Story- Robbed at a corner store in downtown Philadelphia.  This second story also happened in Philadelphia.  A driver and his passenger stopped their car at a corner convenience store at 5:30 in the evening.  The driver was first approached by a man selling drugs.  The driver ignored the seller, and the seller went away.  A group of men then moved toward the car and surrounded the vehicle.  One of the group lay across the hood of the car.   A man opened the car door from the outside.  The driver saw he had a gun tucked into his waistband.  The driver then presented his own firearm and shot the intruder.  The two people in the car drove away, called police, and returned to the scene.  They met uniformed police and told them what happened.  The driver has a permit to legally carry a firearm.  The intruder was shot four times, twice in each leg.

Tatiana- Theft vs robbery vs kidnapping the passenger.

Be the first one on the phone.

It is a clue when the druggies are dealing in on the street in the daylight.

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Third story- Robber shot after failed home invasion  A couple heard a man pound on their front door just after midnight.  The visitor claimed he needed help and needed to use the phone.  Once the couple opened their front door, the stranger pushed his way into the home and presented his firearm.  The intruder gathering items to steal while he held the young man and women who lived in the home at gunpoint.  The robber moved them from room to room, and the male homeowner picked up his own gun.  The homeowner shot the robber.  The robber ran outside.

There were several recent robberies by a man who fit this physical description.

Tatiana- You will not have time to get a gun by the time you know you need one.  That is why you have to be prepared.  Don’t open the door.  

Exit- That wraps up this episode.  Tatiana, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners find you?

Tatiana- They can contact me at http://tatianawhitlock.com/
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/tatiana.whitlock/
Wide open spaces.com and at recoilweb.com

Rob- You reminded me.  Listeners can find us and leave a comment at self defense gun stories dot com, and on our facebook page.  I’m Rob Morse.  Please join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 4 with Ben Branam

Introduction- Welcome to episode 4 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse with instructor and podcaster Ben Branam.  Together, we report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week. Hi, Ben.

Ben- Hi, Rob. Our first example took place last month in Birmingham, Alabama.

1- Home invasion Birmingham Alabama  An 8 year old boy named DJ arrived home a few minutes early from school.  DJ let himself in the house.  A few minutes later, DJ heard three young men trying to get in the house through the front door.  DJ ran upstairs.  He also hid under his bed, called his dad, and called police.  DJ’s dad usually meets him when he comes home from school, so his dad was already on the way home when he got the call.  The father was already armed when he arrived home.  The homeowner found three young men in their 20’s inside his home.  He shot one of them and the other two escaped.  Police arrived moments later.

Chief Deputy Randy Christian said “ There are.. activities in this life that increase your chances of losing yours. Kicking in a door and entering someone’s home with criminal intent is one of them. Thank God this little boy and his dad are ok.”  The couple lived in the home for 10 years.  Now their son wants to move.

Ben comments-

2- Woman attacked at Detroit GM office  In this story, a man broke the rules.. and saved a life.  Didarul Sarder works for a limousine service.  He was working outside the General Motor’s Vehicle Engineering Center in Detroit.  A young woman visited the company and asked to speak with her mom who worked at the plant.

The two women argued, and the young woman stabbed her mother several times.  Other people looked on, but the limousine driver, Didarul Sarder stepped in.  He is licensed to carry a firearm in Michigan.  He was carrying that day.  He drew his personal firearm and told the young woman to stop.  She did.  Medical personnel took the injured woman to the hospital.  Police took the attacker to jail.  The limousine driver was fired for breaking company policy and bringing a firearm on company property.

There was no armed security protecting people as they went to their cars, entered cabs, or took limousines to the airport.  There was only a plastic sign, and that wasn’t enough.

Ben-  The limousine driver was re-hired, but there is a larger issue than his job.  The driver takes strangers to dangerous places at night.  He decided to protect himself.  He did it legally and got his carry license.  The limousine service and GM have their own rules.  You can’t please everyone, but you can do the right thing.. and in this case, save a life.

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Realtor meets thieves in an unoccupied  home.  A realtor in Nashville, Tennessee was looking for a home to buy.  He and his wife entered this newly built home.. to find out that they were not alone.  Two men had pried open the back door and were ransacking the upstairs.  

The realtor put his hand on his gun, but did not draw it.  That was when a thief with gang tattoos on his neck and hands came down stairs.  They made small talk and said they were going to look at the back yard.

That is where the realtor called police.  The two thieves had left by the time police arrived.  The officer said that many of the new homes had been broken into.

Exit- Ben Branam, where can our listeners find out more about you?

Ben- They can contact me at Modern Self Protection .com  to see my class schedule and my podcast.

Rob- Thanks, Ben.  Join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 3 with Tony Simon

Introduction- Welcome to episode 3 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  I’m Rob Morse with instructor Tony Simon.  Hi, Tony.  We report and analyze examples of armed civilian defense each week.

Tony- Our first example took place last month in Virginia.

1-Store clerk stops thieves- one dead, second in hospital  Two armed men entered a Gift Card ATM store in Hampton, Virginia.  It was about 6pm.  The thieves announced a robbery and forced the store clerk behind the counter to give them money.  To their surprise, the clerk was armed with a gun of his own.  He shot the two thieves.  One died on the scene .  No customers or bystanders were injured.  The second thief collapsed from his wounds a few blocks away.  The second thief faces charges of abduction, robbery, conspiracy to commit robbery, burglary while armed, discharging a firearm within an occupied building, wearing a mask in public and four counts of use of a firearm in commission of a felony.  The thief will be charged when he leaves the hospital. 

Be careful if you look this story up for yourself because you might not get the complete story.  Most of the news articles ignored that the criminals were armed and that the thieves fired their guns.

Tony Comments- Physical- Concealed carry again. No such thing as the “one shot stop.” Results- no injured customers, bystanders or employees. Was the employee at risk? When did he know it? What is he allowed to do to protect himself? Is that morally justified?

2- 71 year old convenience store owner stops thief with no shots fired A 71-year-old convenience store owner was opening her shop at 5AM.  At that hour you’re making coffee and putting change into the cash drawer.  You aren’t expecting, at least not in Buckhead, Georgia.  Unfortunately, we don’t get to schedule a violent attack.  The store owner, Janet Willis, saw William Dennis when Mister Dennis entered her store.   Dennis demanded the keys to the store owner’s car.  At that point, Janet Willis, the store owner, hit a silent alarm to summon police.  The thief said he had already killed his mother and would kill her too if she didn’t give him the keys. Quote, “I was afraid he was going to jump me,” she said.  Ms Willis stands all of 5 feet, 1 inch tall.  The thief turned to look at another customer and Ms Willis grabbed a 9mm handgun she keeps under the counter.  She kept her gun pointed at the thief as he ran from the store.  He was later arrested by police for auto theft and attempted robbery. 

Tony Comments- Physical- She is a little old lady, so there was a disparity of size. Guns make us equal. The shop owner had her gun behind the counter and not on her hip.  What if the robber had crossed the counter moved between the store owner and her gun? On body carry is ALWAYS going to be the best option. There is also the option of simply giving him the keys, though that is no guarantee that he won’t kill you anyway. But if you can avoid the fight…

?I don’t have a panic button, but I have a car alarm on my key ring. One option could be to retrieve the keys as ordered, then press the panic button as a diversion. If it makes the bad guy look…there’s your opening to flee or fight. If he doesn’t, explain it away as an accident due to nervousness. If there’s no alarm on the key fob, another option might be to “accidentally” drop the keys when handing them over in order to create an opening.

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3- Police have a difficult job, and so do armed homeowners.  A criminal was having mental problems for the preceding week, but his crimes were never serious enough that the Montpelier, Vermont police could arrest him.  That changed on a Tuesday night late in January.  A family was sleeping upstairs.  They woke up to hear glass breaking as 27-year-old Jesse Fitzgerald kicks his way through the mudroom door and into the kitchen.  The husband got his gun and the wife called 911.  From the top of the stairs, the man told the intruder that he had a gun and that the police were on their way.  That kept the intruder downstairs, and a few minutes later, Fitzgerald left the house.

Fitzgerald went back into the house when police arrived.  The homeowners closed their bedroom door and the police sent in a police dog.  The police then tackled the intruder.  Fitzgerald is being held for mental observation.

Tony Comments- Flashlight? Second gun or second intruder? 

Exit- Tony Simon, thank you for helping me today.  Where can our listeners find you?

They can contact me on Facebook at Simon Says Train or at The Second is for Everyone.

Rob- Join us next week for more Self-Defense Gun Stories.