Episode 133 with Robyn Street

Are you prepared to protect yourself and your family at home, at church, and on the street? What would you do in these situations? (23 minute podcast)

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us and welcome to episode 133 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about using a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self-defense instructor Robyn Street. How have you been?

Robyn- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working and instructing and training and…I have met several new people, made new friends and welcomed them into our community.  How about you?

Rob- I’m looking for a spanish speaking podcaster who wants to make a spanish version of Self-Defense Gun Stories. If you know someone, then please ask them to contact us.  Until then, please introduce our podcast to our new listeners in English.

Robyn- We study several examples where gun owners survived a life threatening situation. Were they lucky, or did they have a plan? What should we do if we were in their place? Our first story took place last week in Detroit, Michigan.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you leave for church Sunday morning?  

You and your adult daughter are going to church. A 75 year old woman also lives with you, and the three of you walk outside to get in your car. A man steps out from next to your house. He grabs your coat and forces you back inside your home. Your daughter follows you. You’re being robbed.

You draw your gun and shoot your attacker. Now he lets go of you. You step away from him and call police. Police call the shooting self-defense.

Rob- Why did the robber want to take them back inside?

Robyn- Sometimes the criminals do that as a way to defeat home alarms and locks or possibly just taking advantage of an opportunity.  Sadly, once inside they are out of sight. Now it is possible to rob all of them. Maybe worse.

Rob- Maybe worse. Wow.

Robyn- Whenever we are going to leave the relative safety of our house we need to first check out the area.  Use cameras, trim shrubbery, motion sensor lighting, eliminate blind spots, fences… Now is the time to minimize risk as much as possible.

Rob- Your 17 year old daughter can do that.

Robyn- Plan ahead…alarm button on the car key, little air horns, carrying OC spray.  Lots of things we can do now to prepare to defend ourselves.

Rob- How did this middle aged woman manage to draw and shoot a much younger attacker?

Robyn- There were 3 adult women involved in this incident. The attacker could really only focus on one at a time. If they operated as a team that would have freed up the other two women to stop the attacker.

Robyn- Advantages of working through what if scenarios.  Coordination, force multiplier, increasing situational awareness, increased commitment to train.  

Robyn- When he grabbed the intended victim by the coat and started forcing her back into the house.  Decision – fight here right now or wait for her turn.

Robyn – Imagine how different this would have been if all three women were armed and worked as a team.

Robyn – I train several shooters that are well into their 70’s.  We have a couple that train with us on a regular basis. The wife was 74 when they decided to get a gun.  Five years later they are certified range safety officers, have taken medical training, have taken legal training and regularly attend range events.  They have made sure that their children and grandchildren got training. They make me very proud!

Robyn- Back to our woman that is being attacked.  Gun was readily accessible on her body. No time to go get it.

Robyn- I am glad that as soon as he released her, she stopped shooting.  She also got the police on their way.

Rob- How do you manage taking a gun to church?

Robyn- Know your local laws.  

Rob- Anything else?

Robyn- That is enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Newman, Georgia.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed at church as you investigate a strange car?   

You’re the pastor of the Saint Smyrna Baptist Church. You notice a strange car parked at the edge of the church property on Wednesday afternoon. You walk up to the abandoned house owned by the church. A large man rushes out of the boarded up home. You call to him, but the stranger grabs you by the coat and butts you in the head. You fall down. The man rushes you again and you draw your firearm. You shoot your attacker. Now your attacker runs away.

You stagger to your feet and call for help. You have broken bones in your face and scratches on your eye.

Robyn- Wrong place at the wrong time..on his own property…on church property.

Rob- I wonder if some of the criminals were using the vacant house for drugs.

Robyn – Suffering from a mental illness, chemically altered, or just a really bad guy.  We don’t know why he was so determined to attack the pastor.

Robyn- The why really did matter.  The attack was in progress and defense needed to begin without denial or hesitation.

Robyn- My first reaction was that I wished that the pastor would have called the police to have them investigate the abandoned car.  

Robyn – It is legal to have OC spray in hand in public in most places.  Again always check your local laws.

Robyn-  Our pastor had been rushed, head butted and has fallen to the ground.  He did a good job of staying in control and in the fight. He was able to get to his gun and use the firearm effectively in such adverse conditions.  

Robyn- Train from unusual positions or with simulated physical limitations.  If possible find a training situation where this is possible and supervised.   

Robyn- As soon as he could safely call the police, he need to get the police and medical help to his location.

Our third story happened last week in Prospect, Connecticut.
G

Listen to Gun Freedom Radio at http://gunfreedomradio.com

Rob- Third story- Are you armed when you are looking for a used car?

There are lots of used car lots. Some are big and some are small. You hope this one is just right. You are inside talking to a salesman when you hear loud shouts from the backroom. You and the salesman stop talking. A second later you see two large men with masks over their faces yell and push one employee and then they begin to threaten another man and start beating him with their pistols. The victim screams in pain. The dealership is being robbed.

You own a gun. You have your Connecticut concealed carry permit. This evening, you’re armed, so you slide out of your chair, draw your firearm, and shoot the attackers. The two robbers run to the back of the building the way they entered. You go to the front desk and make sure the robbers have left. You’re shaken up and it is hard to re-holster your gun. The employees are calling the police.

Police say one of the attackers died at the back of the shop. He had a long criminal history including sexual assault, criminal assault with a firearm, and conspiracy to commit murder.

Robyn- The robbers were using their guns as a bludgeoning tool but no guarantee that they would not start shooting soon.  In either case the customer was in a deadly situation.

Robyn- It is a very complex environment – not familiar with employees, flimsy cubicle walls, stressful, dynamic situation.

Robyn- Armed on body.  Again we have a situation, that there is no time or opportunity to go get the firearm.   

Robyn- In this case, the customer was able to shoot the attackers and they ran away.  The attack was stopped.

Robyn – The physical attack is only part of the battle.  There is a potential legal battle in criminal or civil court.     

Robyn – The armed customer had to make several decision very quickly.  It is a good exercise to work through what if scenarios when you enter a new environment.  

Robyn – The decision to intervene in the defense of others is complex – increased risk of injury or death and the legal repercussions.  Very complex and personal decision.

Robyn – Remember that the armed customer had obviously decided to prepare.  The customer had money and time invested in tools, training and was carrying the gun.  The other customers could have made the same sacrifices. Their state of unpreparedness did not make them the customer’s responsibility to defend.  

Robyn- It is a personal decision that each person would have to make.

Robyn- As soon as safely possible, the customer needed to call the police.  

Our fourth story took place last week in Covington, Kentucky.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed when you’re spending a night at your parents house?

You’re visiting your folks. It is after midnight when you hear loud shouts from the center of the house. Something violent is going on so you grab your gun and creep down stairs. You see three large men dressed in black, wearing ski masks, and carrying guns. They are shouting at your parents and threatening them.  Their guns are pointed at your parents. You shoot the one in front and then aim for the second. Before you can fire again, the robbers have run from the house. You don’t chase them. You and your folks call police.

The police say the three robbers were looking for someone who hasn’t lived there for years. The police chief said what you did was in defense of yourself and other innocent victims so you wouldn’t be charged.

Robyn- My first question is how did the attackers get in the house?  Please lock your doors and use your alarm systems. Slow them down and draw attention to the intruders.

Robyn- You are outnumbered and your parents are facing a lethal threat.  These were really bad guys. It is a dynamic situation and you have to make sure that the parents are not injured.

Rob- This defender was probably crouching down as he came down stairs. Maybe he was shooting on the move. Where could I learn to do that?

Robyn – Classes and other training environments.  At our Scoot and Shoots, the participants have an opportunity to practice movement.  Now is the time to develop as much skill and proficiency as possible.

Robyn- It was obvious that the attackers did not think that their intended victims would fight back.  After one shot, they decided that it was not the fight that they were interested in and they needed to leave.

Robyn- I am glad that our good guy stopped when they ran away.  As soon as safely possible get the police and medical help on the way.

Exit-  Rob- that wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Robyn- I’m at Step by Step Gun Training in Naples Florida.  We provide custom training courses as well as group classes. Leave a message for us on the Step by Step Facebook page.

Rob-Leave a message for me on the podcast facebook page.  

Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free.  We ask that you share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 132 with David Cole

Are you prepared to protect yourself and your family at home, at work, and on the street? What would you do in these situations? (21 minute podcast)

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us. Welcome to episode 132 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self-defense instructor David Cole. How have you been?

David- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working and shooting and hunting.

Rob- Please introduce our podcast to our new listeners.

David- We study several examples where gun owners survived a life threatening situation. Were they lucky, or did they have a plan? What should we do if we were in their place? Our first story took place last week in Midlothian, Texas.

Rob- First story-  Are you armed as you drive and go shopping?

You’re waiting in the car as your wife finishes her grocery shopping. You’re 58 years old. It is nine o’clock at night when two strangers walk by the car. The 21 year old man waves to you and says he hasn’t seen you in a while. The strange man jumps in the front seat and the 19 year old woman jumps in the back seat. That is when the man says “I’ve got a gun. I’ll blow your head off. The next words out of your mouth I’m going to send you to heaven.”

You are a concealed carry holder. You have your gun with you. You draw your firearm and point it at your attacker. Both of your attackers run from your car. You don’t fire as they run into the store. You call police. They arrest the pair after fighting with them. Both of your attackers are charged with aggravated robbery and resisting arrest.     

Rob- You were a police officer. How often does this sort of robbery happen?

David- Every few minutes. Glad he had a gun.

Rob- I agree.

David- I’m also glad that he was able to defend himself without firing a shot.

Rob- How unusual is that?

David- Not unusual at all. Some studies estimate as many as 93% of the time, no shots are necessary in a defensive gun use. Good that he didn’t shoot as the robbers ran away. In any situation like this, once the attacker disengages and flees, it isn’t self-defense anymore.

Rob- What would you tell your students to do.

David- First of all…Lock Your Doors! No one should be able to just walk up and hop into your car with you!

Our defender had his permit, but probably could have benefitted from more training. He was carrying in a pouch rather than on-body, which is usually not optimal. It’s too easy to become separated from your gun. He drew but didn’t fire, though he believed he had an armed attacker in the car with him. I’m pretty confident that he would have been justified in shooting, though he decided not to. Of course, the decision whether or not to pull the trigger is up to the individual…I can’t make that decision for you. In this case, it turned out that the suspect was actually feigning that he had gun and was actually unarmed; it’s fortunate no one had to kill, and no one had to die. But fortune is another word for luck, and there are two kinds of luck. It could just as easily turned out that the bad guy was actually armed and prepared to shoot, and the victim’s hesitation (along with his choice of carry method) could have cost him his life.

Rob- Is it easy to present a firearm quickly, or does it take practice?

David- Everything takes practice.

  • Loading and unloading takes practice.
  • Safe storage takes practice.
  • Drawing and firing from concealment takes practice, especially seated in a car.

In this case, I want my students to get out of the car and stand up before they reholster their firearm. That is safer than trying to re-holster your gun as you’re sitting inside your car. Even better, get a blue gun for that type of practice.

I like our defender’s attitude. He said, “They could have gotten into an automobile with somebody other than me that they would have taken them. If they left this parking lot, we may have never seen them again.” That is important because some robbers want more than your stuff, they want you. They like you being afraid and being hurt or killed. It is good that he was confident and courageous, but it just as easily could have gone the other way. A little bit of training and practice could have bettered his odds.

Rob- Wow. That is a lot to understand. Is there anything else, or can we go on?

David- That is a lot, but it’s enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Fayetteville, North Carolina.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed at when you go to sell your motorcycle?   

It is almost Christmas. Some of us need cash to buy presents. You decided to sell your motorcycle. You found a buyer on an online application. You agreed on a price and a place to meet. It is 8 at night when you arrive. They buyer looks at the bike. Then the buyer points a gun at you and says, give me the keys.

You’re a legal gun owner. You’re armed. You move, draw your firearm, and shoot your attacker in the chest. Your attacker drove away with his friend and was arrested at the local hospital. You stayed at the scene and called police.

David- I like this story because the victim defended himself. I’m glad he had his gun with him.

Rob- Was this the right thing to do, to shoot someone over a motorcycle?

David- This wasn’t a fight over a motorcycle. This was a proportional response to an immediate, unavoidable, threat to your life. You are allowed to defend yourself from an unlawful use of force, or the reasonable threat of it. The robber pointed a gun at his intended victim for the purpose of making the victim believe he would kill him for the bike. Unfortunately for the robber, his victim believed his threat and was prepared to do something about it. Our defender stopped when the robber ran away and the threat ended.

Rob- What do you tell your students to do.

David-  First and foremost is avoidance. While the victim did the right thing in choosing an open, public space for the meet, he was alone. If you don’t have a friend who can go with you, consider going to your local police department. Many of them are happy to have you use their parking lots for these sorts of exchanges.

Second, if all your awareness and prevention fail, and you have to go to the gun, be decisive. Be trained in a proper presentation from concealment, and be able to execute it quickly. Remember that in this case, the robber already had his gun out, so time is critical. Movement may well have been a factor as well. You need to be able to do these things while moving to safety.

Rob- Where can they learn that?

David-  Fortunately, more and more gun stores, commercial ranges, and clubs are offering good quality training. Another great avenue for honing these sorts of skills is competition. USPSA, IDPA, and even simple steel plate matches are great opportunities to work at least two of the three components of the “Combat Triad”…marksmanship, gunhandling, and mindset.

Rob- You’ve been studying martial arts for years. How long does it take to learn to defend yourself with a handgun. When are your students competent?

David- The short answer is that the learning never stops…at least it shouldn’t. And you know that I am a believer that even minimal training is often “enough”…but more training is better. And it’s really an odds game…there are no guarantees, but you can absolutely improve your odds. Any time spent in quality training and practice will help!

Rob- How long does it take to learn to present a firearm from concealment?

David- Our third story happened last week in Moss Point, Mississippi.

Rob- First this message from

Please support Doctors for responsible gun ownership, DRGO.us

Rob- Third story- Do you have a gun nearby when you wake up unexpectedly?

It is 8 in the morning when you hear something happening in your garage. You get up and pull on your pants and your gun. You walk to the center of your home and hear someone at your front door. A stranger says, ‘No one’s home.’

Your front door is kicked open and two men rush inside. You shoot them. One runs away. You back up to your bedroom and call police.

The second criminal was arrested when he was dropped off at the hospital with life threatening injuries.

David- Daylight robberies become more common as the economy improves. The burglars thought the owner was at work.

Rob- So you’ve seen this sort of thing before?

David- This is the bread and butter of police work.

Rob- What did our defender do right?

David- Looks like he shot well. POGO. Defend yourself from the immediate threat. Stop shooting when the threat goes away. Retreat to a safe location, and call police.

Rob- What should we do that might be better?

David- Call the police before you go investigate. I don’t think it would have made a difference in this case, but often the criminals will enter the far end of the house. That lets you lock the bedroom door and let the police to toe-to-toe with your robbers.

David- Our forth story took place in Georgetown, South Carolina.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you work at a cellphone store?

and https://www.southstrandnews.com/crime/georgetown-carjacking-suspects-arrested-in-columbia-after-attempted-robbery/article_e5ee21d0-effa-11e8-969f-636bffa0f96c.html

Here are two stories with two different results. In the first story, you’re getting in your car parked in a Walgreens parking lot. A woman points a gun at you and tells you to get out of your car. You jump out and the robber drives away.

The next day, a different person is working in a cell phone store. A man dressed as a woman comes in and points a gun at you and demands you open the cash register. You’re a legal gun owner and you’re carrying concealed. You draw your gun and shoot your attacker. He runs out of the store, firing his gun as he runs away. Your robber dumps his stolen getaway car. Both the man and the woman carjacker drive to nearby city. They are arrested as they drop the wounded man off at the hospital.

David- For the first situation, just like our first story today…Lock Your Car Doors!

Now in the second…Both victims faced a lethal threat, but one of them could defend themselves because they had a gun.

Rob- That made it moral to use lethal force in self-defense?

David-  Moral and legal. If someone attacks with lethal force…or the reasonable and imminent threat of it…you can defend yourself.

Rob- Why didn’t the bad guy fall down and die when he was shot?

David- The attacker was shot in the stomach and that can be a lethal wound, but it won’t stop the attacker quickly. This was what we would refer to as a “psychological stop,” where the attacker decides he doesn’t want to leak anymore and leaves.

Rob- What do you recommend for your students?

David- There are really three ways a gun stops a violent attack. The psychological stop we discussed a moment ago, or through organ failure caused by blood loss (which also takes time), or through a hit to the central nervous system which “turns off the main breaker.” Learn to shoot a self-defense handgun. Shoot until the threat ends.

Rob- Did you see a lot of robberies like this as a police officer?

David- Fortunately, no. But that only means it was uncommon in my town. They do happen, and while the odds may be low, the stakes are high. And also fortunately, while it does take some effort to be personally prepared, it is doable!

Exit-  Rob- that wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- My training website is Aegis Solutions  on Facebook. I also write about gun rights at BlackManWithAGun.com

Rob- Leave us a message on the podcast facebook page.

David- We share this podcast with you for free.  All we ask is that you share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

 

~_~_

http://traffic.libsyn.com/dgustories/sdgs132.mp3

 

Episode 131 with Elizabeth Hautman

These gun owners were armed on the street, at home, and at work. Were they lucky or were they prepared? What would you do if you were in their situation?

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us and welcome to episode 131 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self defense instructor Elizabeth Hautman.

Elizabeth- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working and shooting and selling gift certificates for the holidays.

Rob- Elizabeth, how do you listen to the show?

Elizabeth– I listen to it on Itunes.

Rob- That is how most people listen. Please put us in your pocket every week, and give us rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher. Please leave a comment to tell us what you liked about the show.

Please introduce our podcast to our new listeners.

Elizabeth- We study several examples where gun owners survived a life threatening situation. Were they lucky, or did they have a plan? What should we do if we were in their place? Our first story took place last week in Thomasville, Georgia.

Rob- First story-  Do you have your firearm on you when you go to your bank?

You’re walking out of the Suntrust bank at 2 in the afternoon. A man walks up besides you. He grabs your arm and he tries to grab your purse. You pull your purse away from him, but he draws his gun and demands you hand over your purse. You draw your gun and the robber runs away. You go back into the bank and call police.

Elizabeth- Good she had an attitude to not be a victim.

Rob- Before you tell us more, is this sort of robbery unusual? Someone walked up to this lady in daylight right outside a bank.

Elizabeth-  Good she had a gun

Rob- What else do you see?

Elizabeth- I wish she’d had more practice because she drew her gun while someone else had their gun pointed at her, and she did not fire her gun. That makes me think she was slow and her attacker might not have had a real gun.

Rob- Does she have the right to defend herself from being robbed?

Elizabeth-  

Rob- What do you want your students to do in this situation?

Elizabeth- Let’s wait and I’ll explain that during our second story?
Rob- What is the minimum training you want someone to have before they are safe to carry a firearm in public?

Elizabeth- Safety. Safe storage. Loading and unloading. Basic handling.

That is enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Shively, Kentucky.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed as you drive your car?   

You’re going back to your car after doing your shopping. It is a little after 9 at night. Two men approach you and ask you for a light. You reach into your car for a lighter, and you’re facing a gun to your head when you turn back around. You move and draw your own gun. The attackers shoot at you as they run away. You shoot back. The robbers missed you. Other witnesses say your attackers limped as he got into a getaway car.

Police arrest both robbers at a nearby hospital where they sought treatment. In addition to robbery, one of your attackers had an outstanding warrant for his arrest.

Elizabeth, explain why the victim had a right to use lethal force to defend himself?

Elizabeth- Immediate and unavoidable threat of death.

Rob- Well that is pretty clear.

Elizabeth- Also, this might have been avoidable. Don’t hang around outside the store in the dark. It is a transition space and people can appear out of the darkness and cause problems for you.

Rob- We have holiday shopping coming up in a few weeks. What else?

Elizabeth- Thank goodness he had a gun and the training to use it.

Rob- What did this victim do that was different from the victim in our first story?

Elizabeth- He had a plan and he practiced.

He moved as he drew his firearm. He quickly presented his firearm and shot his attackers. Our third story happened last week in Spokane, Washington.

Rob- First this message from my good friends at FASTER Colorado.

Please support Coloradans for Civil Liberties

Rob- Third story- Are you armed while you’re at work in the evenings?

You own a convenience store. Tonight you are behind the checkout counter. The next customer walks up and instead of dropping some chips on the counter or saying he wants to pre-pay for gas, this man is wearing a bandana over his face and has a knife pointed at you. The robber says, “Give me the money.”

You take a step back and draw your gun from under the counter. Before you say anything, the robber is running out the door. You call 911 and then show the police the video from your security cameras.

Elizabeth- Good work, but that isn’t best practice. That isn’t what I want my students to do.

Rob- What should we do if we faced a man with a knife?

Elizabeth- A knife is a lethal threat, so you have the right to use lethal force to stop that threat and save your life. It is your duty, and you have to think about how to perform that duty before you face the threat. There are lots of times during the day when the store owner is away from the cash register and I want him to be able to protect himself all the time.  You don’t have a gun to protect the money, you have a gun to protect your life, so have the tools you need on your body where you need them, not at the cash register.

Rob- OK

Elizabeth- I’m glad the store owner had a gun, but I want him to get much more training.

Rob- Why do you think he wasn’t proficient with his firearm?

Elizabeth- It is one motion to clear your garments away from your gun, grab your gun, present it in front of you as you put your hands together, see the gun sights on the target, and press the trigger to fire. If he practiced, then that is one motion and one thought, but our defender didn’t fire. That means our defender was slow and the attacker had time to run away. Good decision for the defender to not shoot once the robber turned and started to run.

Rob- You’re saying that presenting your gun and shooting is a single action, like clapping your hands.

Elizabeth- Yes, it is that fast. Once you decide to shoot you’ve got a shot on the way in a little over a second. That isn’t enough time for your attacker to see your gun, decide what to do, turn and move toward the door.  That is why we know that this defender needs to practice.

Let’s move on. We go to Natchez, Mississippi for our fourth story.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you have a firearm where you can get it as you get out of bed?

Your wife shakes you awake at little after sunrise Saturday morning. She says she heard someone moving around outside and knocking at your front door. You live in a gated community. You have a gate to your property and you are not expecting visitors. You look out your window and notice that the doors are open on your truck sitting in the driveway.

You pull on pants and put on your gun. As you walk out to your truck, you notice that the doors are open on the cars in your garage too. A stranger is sitting in one of your cars. You walk up, point your gun at him, and tell him not to move. Your wife has already called the police. The robber was charged with four counts of burglary and a misdemeanor charge of malicious mischief.

Elizabeth- Good that he had security cameras. Bad that he didn’t use them until later when he showed them to the police.  Good that he had a gun. Bad that he didn’t call the police and let them arrest the robber while our defender stayed inside and kept his family safe. You don’t want to kill someone to protect your truck, but you must protect your family.

Rob- When to your teach your students about the right and the wrong time to use lethal force?

Elizabeth- What classes come before and after legal use of lethal force?

Exit-  Rob- that wraps up this episode. Elizabeth, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Elizabeth- I instruct in Colorado Springs.  I teach small classes at my private range in Black Forest.  Students can contact me at Colorado Boots Firearms Instruction.

Rob- Let us know what you think by leaving us a message on the podcast facebook page.  

Elizabeth- We share this podcast with you for free.  Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 130 with Staff

Do gun owners defend themselves and not pull the trigger? Here are three examples of self-defense with no shots fired. (27 minute audio)

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us and welcome to episode 130 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already have a gun of your own.. I’m your host, Rob Morse. Because of our schedules, this is a review episode. I search for stories where the defender did not shoot their gun. Too often those events don’t make the news. I’ve collected three of them for this episode.

Our first story took place in October 2018, and Jeff Street was our instructor.

Rob- First story-  Are you armed as you have a yard sale at your parents house?  

Your mom and dad are having a yard sale, and you said you’d stick around to help. Your mom saw someone stuffing clothing into her handbag. Your mom and dad asked her to stop that. Instead of returning the items, the stranger sprayed you mom and dad with pepper spray, and tried to stab your dad with a knife. You stepped inside and got the family shotgun. You pointed the shotgun at the attacker and told her to leave.

She saw the gun and ran.  You called police. The police said the young woman was lucky she was not shot and killed.

Jeff- 1st let’s look at avoidance.  We try to keep the pool of people who have been on our property or inside our home to a minimum.  In our neighborhood the nearby county park lets you rent a space once a month for a community yard sale.  They had no clue who would show up to their property.

This crazy woman looked normal in her mugshot photo.

I like this story because it’s the most likely defensive gun use scenario in that no shots were fired.  The scarry shotgun got the job done. You still need to call 911 as soon as possible so law enforcement can hear your side of the story 1st. This type of Defensive gun use rarely makes the news.

Of course we must add POGO pants on gun on.

Sounds like she had mental health issues.

The time while you went inside to get a gun could have cost your parents their lives.

Have a good plan. “We’ll get our gun.” might not work if it is hundreds of feet away while you’re out at your mailbox. You only have the tools that are within reach.

Jeff- Having a gun can stop the confrontation from escalating, so it would have been better if the family was armed with firearms on their bodies.

Rob- Do you talk to your students about what to do if someone in your family is attacked?

Rob- This took place at a yard sale. In your shooting classes, do you include targets that you don’t want to shoot?

Rob- What did our defender do correctly?

Jeff- Good restraint that the son tried verbal commands and did not shoot when he saw that the verbal commands worked. Good restrain in not following the attacker.

Rob- I’m imagining that someone tried to stab my dad. I can’t holster a shotgun, so I have to go back inside and put it away. I have the same problem with a handgun if I don’t have a holster. What do I do with the gun when I need two hands.

Next question is, can I stop the bleeding?

Our second story took place in July 2018.  Robyn Street was our instructor for that episode.

Rob- second story Are you armed at home?

It is well after dark when you hear someone knocking on your front door. You check your doorbell camera and don’t recognize the woman standing on your porch. The stranger says her friend lives there. The strange woman is obviously confused, and she also sounds increasingly angry as she demands to be let in. You call police. The strange woman rips the screen door off your entryway and the screens off your windows. Your doors and windows are locked. The intruder throws herself an your door over and over, then starts banging on your windows.

You tell her you have a gun and to go away. Police arrive a moment later and arrest her. The intruder is a 30-years-old and she was drunk. She faces charges with vandalism.

Robyn- The homeowner, a retired police officer, had a gun and was mentally prepared to use it to defend herself.  This was something that our homeowner had already envisioned as a possibility. She had done a good job of hardening her home.  The doors and windows were locked and secure, camera was installed and operating, phone was charged and in hand, gun was available and ready to use.  Hooray.

Robyn – I love the fact that she had installed a doorbell camera.  She could identify the person at the door without compromising her security..  I am not sure if the camera had a speaker but regardless she also issued clear verbal commands to leave.

Robyn – She did so many things right.  She called the police and got them on the way. A further benefit to calling 911 is that they can give you updates on the position of help on the way, you can keep them updated on the location of the threat and on your location.  Finally, it is recorded in case any legal action is required.

Robyn- She was frightened..and she is a retired police officer.  She did a great job of analyzing the threat as it was unfolding. I think it is important for us to mention how upset she was sharing how  close she was to shooting the woman. Perhaps she had drawn the red line at crossing the threshold of the house. She was prepared and stayed in control.  She had police on the way but they were not there yet. She was her own first responder. If we find ourselves in a similar situation this would give us a good mental map to follow.

Robyn- No shots fired.  I wish that every self defense scenario was like this one.  The preparations were sufficient to keep her potential attacker away.  Good job! Our second story happened North of Daytona Beach.

Rob- Our third story was with Amanda Suffecool as our instructor and it took place in October of 2017.

Rob- third story-  ARE YOU ARMED AS YOU RUN ON A JOGGING TRAIL BEFORE SUNRISE?

You’re running on a local trail before dawn. You hear a woman scream. You slow down and look to see where the screams came from. A man is holding a woman on the ground and she’s fighting him. You grab your flashlight and a gun from your fanny pack. You shine the light on the couple. The man is sitting on top of the woman, and pressing his hand over her mouth. You see her struggle.

You point your gun at the attacker and tell him to get away from the women. He does, but he runs away with her shoes and her shorts. You let him go.

Police report that the woman was attacked from behind and then dragged off the running trail. The victim identified her rapists as a homeless young man who has been previously charged with felony assault and eight misdemeanors including two charges of indecent exposure.  All these charges were filed within the last two years.

Amanda- She fought, and her screams brought help.  A Concealed carry does not make us an auxiliary police officer – yet at the same time we need to do what we can.

Amanda- the life you save may not be your own.   Preparedness and practice are critical when you are called to make instant judgments when yous and someone else’s life is on the line.

Amanda- Don’t wear earplugs when you run in strange places.  Or music, or…..

Amanda- Bring your own gun rather than rely on others.

Rob- We often tell students to avoid other people’s fights. She did make the choice to run in the dark without any tools of self-defense.

Amanda- We live in a society where selfishness abounds.   There is a line where it’s not your fight – but could you live with yourself if you just ran on.   In this case – No shots fired. This is a win on so many levels.

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Let us know what you think and leave us a message on the podcast facebook page. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify. This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 129 with Ben Branam

What should you if you or your family were attacked at home or at work? Rob and Ben analyze four new examples of armed defense.

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us, and welcome to episode 129 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who might be curious about a firearm and for those who already own one for self-defense. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self defense instructor Ben Branam.

Ben- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working and shooting and teaching..and driving a lot.

Rob- Ben, how do you listen to the show?

Ben– I listen to it on my  phone as I drive.

Rob- That is how most people listen. Please put us in your pocket every week, and give us rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher. Since iTunes and Stitcher lost our show, please go to their sites and give us a rating.

Ben, please tell our new listeners what to expect.

Ben- We study several examples where gun owners survived a life threatening situation. Were these defenders lucky, or did they have a plan? What should we do if we were in their place? Our first story took place last week in the Bronx borough of New York City.

Rob- First story-  Are you armed in your small grocery at closing time?  

It is 10:30 at night. The flow of customers is finally slowing down. You’re taking care of one customer after another and now you get a chance to clean up. A stranger comes in and says, “Give me your money.” You’re one of the few people in New York who have a permit to have a gun at home and at work. You are armed in your store tonight. You back away from the cash register, but the robber jumps up on the counter right in front of you.

With the robber towering over you, you draw your gun and fire. The robber stops advancing, so you stop firing. You move to the back room and call police.

Rob- Was this a situation that demanded self-defense including lethal force?

Ben- Position of advantage.

Rob- What did our defender do correctly?

Ben- Create distance. Stop shooting. Call police.

Rob- What would you tell your students to do if they were in this situation?

Ben- It wasn’t clear if the store owner had is gun in a holster on his body. You might not have time to get it unless it is with you.  Having your gun in your holster on your body also gives you a safe place to put your gun after you use it. I say that because after you’ve shot someone, you don’t want to run through your store with a gun in your hand.

Rob- What should you do after you’ve defended yourself?

Ben- Honor the witnesses.

“Stay down. Is anyone hurt? Please stay where you are so you’re not attacked.”

You don’t know if there is another robber waiting outside. You don’t know if this robber had another weapon. Look around and see if anyone else is hurt.

“I’m calling the police. Does anyone need immediate medical care? Check to see if someone in your aisle is hurt.”

This article didn’t include a video. An in-store video surveillance system can save you thousands of dollars in legal fees. You might end up in court even if you did everything exactly right. The video system can keep you from being arrested in the first place.

Have a lawyer and call them to make a formal statement to the police.

Rob- Do we see robberies very often?

Ben-
Rob- Anything else?

Ben- That is enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed when you have out of town guests staying with you overnight?   

Your house is full. You have old friends who are staying with you to avoid some storms. Your daughter is also visiting you. Your daughter’s ex-boyfriend came over, but she asked him to leave. Unfortunately, the ex-boyfriend came back at about 5 in the evening. He tries to get in the front door, but that is locked. He tries to get in the back door, but that door is locked too. He breaks into the garage, and then breaks through your door to the garage. You shout for him to leave, but he advances toward you. You shoot him when he advances toward your family and guests.

Ben- It doesn’t say, but I’ll bet that the mother and daughter were on the phone to the police before the ex-boyfriend broke the garage door and charged the homeowner. That is a good plan because it means that you wanted the police there and establishes you as the good guy asking for help.

The situation would have been entirely different if you’d gone outside to hunt this ex-boyfriend. That is not self-defense.

Rob- Was the homeowner legally justified in using a firearm?

Ben- Castle doctrine in Oklahoma

Oklahoma statute says you have grounds for self-defense if your attacker unlawfully broke into your home, your car, or your business.

Also, there are five of you, so you may not be able to safely retreat without leaving someone behind.

Rob- So I can shoot someone who breaks into my home?

Ben- Intrusion isn’t enough of a reason to shoot. You need to be at risk of an attack. If a young couple’s car breaks down, and they break into your garage to get out of a storm, you don’t have a hunting permit to shoot them as their hands are raised. We have a name for people who do that. They are called murderers and they go to prison.

Rob- What would you tell your students to do if they were in this situation?

Ben- The attacker was probably on drugs. Retreat if you can. Defend yourself if you must. Practice with your family so you all know what to do.

Rob- What could that family plan look like?

Ben- There are several task that you want to do at the same time.

-Who has armed defense?

-Who calls the police?

-Who takes care of the children or guests as the situation develops?

-Do you have solid doors on the room where you want to hide?

You have a very solid case if the crazy intruder is still there with a bruised shoulder as he is trying to break your solid door when the police walk in. I mean it that you don’t want to shoot people. Gunshots are messy, and a solid door and good locks are way cheaper than having to repaint your house because you shot someone in your living room.

Rob- I’ve heard you talk about a solid core bedroom door before.

Ben- Right. Little Ben Branam has a safespace.

In this case, I wish this homeowner had safety film on the glass near the door to his garage. That would have bought this family more time to retreat and more time for the police to arrive. I put the link in the show notes if you want to buy that film.

Rob- Are break ins like this fairly common?

Ben- They happen everywhere.

Rob- Is there more, or should we go on?
Ben- Let’s go on. Our third story happened last week in Taft, California.

Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

 

Please support the Crime Prevention Research Center at
http://crimeresearch.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home while your kids are asleep?

 Your children wake you up Sunday morning. They want to use your laptop, but they can’t find it. You tell them it is on the table, but the kids say it isn’t there. You get out of bed and start to look for the missing laptop. You know you used it last night. Someone has also dumped out your purse and gone through it. That is when you hear your 7 year old daughter scream. You run to her and see her running back inside the house from the garage. There is a stranger in your garage.

 You put all the kids into the back room. Then you get your gun. This is the gun you bought only two weeks ago. You open the door to the garage and see the intruder in the corner. You tell the intruder that you’ll shoot him if he comes any closer.

 Then you call the police. The police arrest the intruder a few minutes later.

 Ben- Well that is an ugly way to start a Sunday morning. Holding a gun and making a phone call is really hard to do.

Rob- What did our mama bear do correctly?

Ben- She sent the kids to the back room, and that was perfect. It sounds like she had a plan, and she gets a gold star for that. She also had a gun, so she gets a second gold star. She had a video surveillance system, but she only gets partial credit for that one.

Rob- Why does she only get partial credit?

Ben- There were no signs of a breakin, so she probably left the garage door unlocked. Lock your doors.

It turn out that mama bear had a surveillance system, and it captured the breakin. I bet she also had an alarm system..and she forgot to turn it on.

Turn on the alarms.

 Rob- What else did you notice.

Ben- You have kids in the home. That means your gun has to be in a rapid access safe because it has to be securely locked away from your children.

Rob- Ben, do you have a quick access safe for you AND one for your wife?

Ben- Not yet, but I’m working on it.

Rob- Talk about your security plan with the whole family. Who will move the kids. Who will call the police. Who will protect the family. Don’t hunt the bad guys over a laptop.

Rob- Why do you say not to look for the criminal. It turned out reasonably well this time.

Ben- The robber stole a laptop and bananas, and he was in the garage for a couple of hours. I think he was on drugs.

 When we look at the patterns of crime, there are usually several robbers. If they have guns, and more of them do all the time, then don’t get into a gunfight that you can avoid. Let the police do that because they wear body armor and , and dogs, and friends carrying shotguns.

 Rob- Anything else before we go to the next story?
Ben- A final gold star to this momma bear for not shooting the intruder in her garage. She was in Taft, California. If you point a gun at an intruder in your garage in San Francisco, then you might be arrested for aggravated assault. Remember the rules, and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you’re ready to shoot.

Rob- Good point. You’re going to be pretty nervous and you could fire by accident.

Ben- Our forth story was in Clarksville, Indiana.

 Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed when you go outside to investigate two women screaming for help?

 You’re getting ready for bed. You hear screams from outside your apartment. The voices sound familiar, so you go outside to see what is going on. A man is beating up your neighbor and your neighbor’s 9 year old daughter. You’re armed. You step closer and shout for the attacker to stop. He looks at you and he sees your gun pointed at him. You say you’ll shoot him if he attacks you. You tell him to sit down on the curb. The woman and her daughter move away from their attacker.

 The attacker gets up off the curb and comes toward you. You yell for him to stop and you take a step back. You shoot him as he closes the distance. Now he stops.

 You step back and call police and EMTs.

 Police take both the woman and her daughter to the hospital for treatment of their injuries. The attacker was declared dead at the scene.

 Ben- Are you going to get involved if you hear screams outside? It isn’t your duty to intervene. This woman could have had a gun of her own and protected herself, but she chose not to.

Rob- What about her daughter?

Ben- Good question, but why did this mother leave herself AND her daughter unprotected?

You have to think about this now. Otherwise you’ll be thinking about it for minutes while your neighbor and her young daughter are being beaten.

Rob- So you want us to make those decisions ahead of time?

Ben- As much as you can. This is a great example of why you need your tools with you. Suppose you run out to the street and shout for the guy to stop. He doesn’t stop, so then have to run back inside and open your gun safe? That isn’t a plan.

Rob- Is this a gun problem in the first place?

Ben- This attack was a lethal threat to the child. You could tackle the attacker. I weigh 280 pounds and I can lift 350. If you run up and you’re a 150 pound woman and the guy is my size beating a 9 year old girl, then this is definitely an immediate and unavoidable life threatening situation.

Rob- What happens next?

Ben- The beauty of having a holster is it gives you a place to put your gun once you’ve used it.

Call the police. Stay there if you are safe. Call your attorney. Give a very brief statement. Your attorney will give your full statement the next day.

Exit- Rob- You always give me a lot to think about. that wraps up this episode and thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Ben- Look for me at Modern Self Protection.com.  I live in San Antonio, and most of my classes are in central Texas.  I teach armed self-defense and church security. Listeners can see my class schedule at my website, and they can also listen to my weekly podcast Modern Self-Protection.

Ben- We share this podcast with you for free.  All we ask is that you share the podcast with a friend.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- Apple lost this podcast for a week, so we’re starting over. Please give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher to let people know why they should listen.

Ben- This podcast, just like mine, is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

Rob- I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 128 with Amanda Suffecool

Are you safe at home? What should you if you or your family is attacked? Rob and Amanda analyze four new examples of armed defense. (27 minutes)

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us and welcome to episode 128 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self defense instructor Amanda Suffecool.

Amanda- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working and shooting- just came back from Davenport Iowa where I got to shoot a fully automatic suppressed MP5..  that was fun and Chicago where I produced and modeled in a concealed carry fashion

Rob- Amanda, how do you listen to the show?

Amanda- I listen to it a couple of ways.   It’s on the . Self Defense Radio Network at SDRN.us and now it part of Self Defense Monday ( along with my show) on KRMARadio.com every monday from 4p to 4a.

Rob- That is how most people listen. Please put us in your pocket every week, and give us rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher. Please leave a comment to tell us what you liked about the show.

Please introduce our podcast to our new listeners.

Amanda- We study several news stories where gun owners survived a life threatening situation. Were these defenders lucky, or did they have a plan? What should we do if we were in their place? Our first story took place last week in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Rob- First story-  Do you have a firearm nearby when everyone is in bed asleep?

You wake up to hear someone beating on your front door.  It is 1:30 in the morning on a weekday. The pounding goes on for several minutes. Then you hear glass breaking at the back of the house. Your housemate shouts that someone broke through the back window. You grab your shotgun and wait in the hallway. You see the intruder, and he has a gun. You shoot him. Now your housemate calls the police.

Amanda- There are thousands of home invasion robberies every day. What‘s your plan if it happens to you? If you live alone you need a plan. If you live with someone then both of you really need a plan. Your family needs a plan.

Rob- So my plan has to change if my family is at home with me or if I’m home alone?

Amanda-  It sounds like this was a household of two guys. You need a plan so you don’t shoot your housemates or get shot by them. Talk about it now.

Also, consider if you could hide and let the police solve the problem for you. That depends on who else is in the house with you that minute.  AND the anticipated time for the police to get there.

Rob- So what does a plan look like?

Amanda- The story doesn’t say how the homeowner saw the robber. Did our defender turn on the lights? Did he have a flashlight? How could he see the robbers hands at the other end of the house.

Rob- I have to see the intruder to know if he is a threat.

Amanda- The law assumes that anyone who breaks into my house is there to do me harm, not take me to the prom. Also, this robber was armed, but you can’t assume that. You can’t assume that law in every state – know your laws…and they say you can’t assume very intruder is a danger to you.

Don’t shoot your drunk neighbor or your stupid drugged nephew..unless he is a lethal threat to you.

Rob- The story doesn’t say where the shotgun came from. They make it sound like magic. One minute it wasn’t there, and the next minute the homeowner has a loaded gun in his hands.

Amanda- Gun Safes since this is the middle of the night. A nightstand drawer isn’t secure.  There are a HUGE variety of gun safes that are quick access – available to you. Simply google Quick Access Shotgun Safe.  
Rob- Now that I’m armed, when can I use my gun?

Amanda- Not when they knock on the door. Not when they break the back window. You only use lethal force, and that includes a gun, when you face a lethal threat, and you feel ( and can explain ) why your life was in jeopardy.   Such as… an armed intruder standing in the center of your house – is an immediate unavoidable lethal threat.

THAT is why you can use your gun.

Rob- Anything else?

Amanda- Since you’re working on your safety plan, practice calling the police.  Where you are, what you need, who you are. What you look like.

Also, if you carry in public then you need insurance. If you had insurance you’d want to call them too because if someone fired a shot – there will be a criminal investigation and you are in the center of it.

That is enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Fort Valley, Georgia.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed at home when you’re getting the kids ready for school?   

Your wife drove off to work. Now you’re getting your young girls ready for school. You hear a crunching sound, and the next thing you know two strangers are standing in your living room. They start to grab your things, and you fight with them to push them back out of your home. The kids are in the back room. You draw your firearm and shoot your nearest attacker. Now, both of the intruders run off. You call the police..and try to explain what happened to your wife.

The police capture your wounded attacker. He is taken to the hospital with non-life threatening chest wound. You know this man. You’ve given him donations of clothes before.

Amanda- It says this was a break in, so I assume the door was locked. Good for them.  That is always a good habit to get into.

Rob- It also sounds like the homeowner was either wearing a gun or had it very close to him.

Amanda- I’d like you to go armed so you don’t have to fight off two intruders just to go get your defensive tools.   Its easiest to know where you put your gun, when its with you.

Rob- Was this a gun problem?

Amanda- You’re being attacked by two people in your home. You’re also defending your family. You could not retreat because your family was there. The fact that you were outnumbered and felt that they intended to do you and yours harm – means you were ‘in the right’ to use a tool to stop the attack.

You are NOT allowed to use lethal force if the six year old next door comes over and starts fighting with you. That is not an immediate, unavoidable life threatening danger to you or others. You can just push the little stinker out the door and send him home, and the law expects you to do that.

Also, nobody wants to be shot by a gun.  That is true if the gun is a 22 or a 45. All guns have the potential to deliver lethal wounds, but most handgun wounds are not fatal.

Rob- So even a shot to my arm could be fatal if it isn’t treated.

Amanda- Exactly. Not treated, or in the ‘lucky or unlucky spot’  We teach people to aim for the center of the chest in order to stop the attack because its the largest area with the most ‘critical to life’ organs.  

Rob- The pictures of people at the shooting range show the shooter standing very still with his arms stuck out and firing very carefully. This man’s living room didn’t look anything like that. This was a dogfight that involved firearms.

Amanda- You’re talking about target shooting, and I love target shooting. We teach that, but we also teach people how to defend themselves with a handgun. Self-defense is usually over in the blink of an eye.

Rob- Is self-defense complicated?
Amanda- Yes and no. Look at the range of topics we talk about each week and you can see that the situations are not that simple, but handling a gun is easier than driving a car. You didn’t learn to drive a car in a one hour class, and I can’t pour everything you should learn into your head in an hour either.

Rob- So step at a time.

Amanda- Step at a time.  And Practice, practice, practice.

Rob- Lets step on to our next story.

Amanda- Our third story happened last week outside of Gans, Oklahoma.

Rob- First this message from the Buckeye Firearms Association.

Please support Buckeye Firearms Foundation at https://www.buckeyefirearmsfoundation.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed when you’re ex-boyfriend has been drinking?

You have a restraining order against your ex-boyfriend. You also have a firearm in your purse. Your ex shows knocks on the door of your apartment. He says he’s been drinking and wants to lay down. You say no. He raises his arm to push his way inside. You shoot him once in the center of the chest and he stops.  You stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for police and medical services.

EMT’s arrive and call for a life-flight transport due to life threatening injuries.

The sheriff said this was self defense.

Amanda- If you have an abusive ex then get a restraining order.   That was the paperwork – filed in a time where your head’s not swirling, and emotions are running high.  You can think through and explain why you are feeling a threat from this person.

Rob- What does a piece of paper do?

Amanda- Going to court now for the restraining order can keep you from going to jail later.  It also puts them on notice that you will not be tolerating their BS. This is part of your defensive plan – but I also want you to change the locks, get good locks on your doors, and learn armed self-defense.  Look at the lighting, trim the bushes and any hiding places… read up on implementing a defensive plan.

Rob- Some of your students have been victims of domestic violence? How are they as students?

Amanda-  Well, Rob,  They are interested, They are engaged.  THEY know that there is one person responsible for  their safety – and its them.

Rob- What would you tell your students to do in this situation?

Amanda- Don’t open the door. Make them break the door down because you changed the locks and their key doesn’t work any more. This isn’t negotiable. Change where you live if your landlord won’t put in new locks.   Maybe change where you live, anyway.

Rob- She had her gun with her.

Amanda- In a purse. I’d rather it was on her body because we put our purse down when we get home.

Bad start for opening the door – Don’t- just dont.  Good restraint for stopping when the threat stopped.   Your job is to stop the treat, the medical teams job is to provide the medical help necessary so that you can then take them through the legal system.

Rob- One of our listeners sent in an local article. In this case, a local stalker had harassed over 20 women. The judge not only put the stalker in jail, but the judge provided free concealed carry instruction classes for the victims. The link to that article is in our show notes. If you listen on your smartphone, the link might be in your pocket. Thank you, Matt for the article.

Amanda- This is important because domestic violence and stalking victims think they are alone and powerless. Abuse is a disease of doubt, and this class let the recovering victims see that they are not alone and they are not powerless. It is a beautiful prescription and a powerful antidote to abuse. Now, get trained and carry.

Rob- Let’s go on to our fourth story.

Amanda- Forth story? We usually do three stories.

Rob- Our listeners left us a message on the podcast facebook page and asked for a fourth story. If you like more stories, then let us know. If you want a shorter podcast, then let us know that as well.

Amanda- Our fourth story took place last week in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed when you’re protecting your daughter from an abusive boyfriend?

Amanda- This is our episode for stopping crazy ex-boyfriends.

Rob- It is. Your daughter called you. It is late at night, but she heard from her ex-boyfriend. She’d taken out a restraining order, but the guy didn’t learn. You’re inside her home when the ex boyfriend tries to break into the house. You’re armed, but the door holds and he can’t get in. He stops shaking the door and you think he went away. You hope he went away, but you see him at the back of the house. He is trying to set the house on fire. Now, you go outside and tell him to leave. He moves toward you and you shoot him. That stops the attack and you stop shooting.

Your daughter calls police. You stay and talk to them. EMTs take the attacker to the hospital. He is arrested and charged with attempted aggravated arson, home invasion, domestic abuse battery, simple assault and simple criminal damage to property, and two counts of violating a protective order.

Amanda- If abusers learned then they wouldn’t be abusers. Get the restraining order because a few hundred dollars for a lawyer now saves you tens of thousands of dollars later if you have to protect yourself.

Rob- What else did you see?

Amanda- Abusers and their victims both normalize violence. That is why it was great that the victim called her dad. He doesn’t accept excuses, like that is just the way he is, or he was just trying to frighten me, or it won’t happen again.   That small eroding of confidence and space. Creeping in, getting closer.

Rob- Strangers see with clear eyes.

Amanda- And strangers carry their defensive tools. There was no time to go back inside the house, get your gun, load it, and then defend yourself. Like a fire extinguisher, you need it right now.

Rob- This happened at 10 at night.

Amanda- Bring a flashlight. You don’t want to shoot the neighbor who saw the fire and came over to put it out. You must, you must, identify your attacker before you shoot.

Rob- You mentioned a fire extinguisher. It would be good to have that.

Amanda- And mount them on the wall rather than leaving them in the litter on the bottom of the closet.

Again, I give the dad credit for stopping when the attack stopped.

Rob- Talk to us about talking to the police.

Amanda- if you have domestic abuse in your family, then you have to talk about it. We have the urge to keep it quiet. Talk about who to call, what to do, and what to say to the police.

Be brief until you talk to your lawyer before you give a full statement later..and you will talk to your lawyer if you even mention that you have a gun.

Brief, and it isn’t easy for me to be brief- I was attacked. I defended myself, I want the person arrested. I’ll swear that in a statement and testify. I was standing about here when I shot, so the shell casing should be about here. i’ll give you a full statement after I’ve talked with my lawyer.

Rob- Why do we talk to a lawyer?

Amanda- You and I don’t speak clearly. The lawyer will take our story the next day and present it in a way that can’t be twisted or misrepresented.  And they help you get it complete – with an event like this, your head is swirling, things are going through your head like a kaleidoscope. You need a clear, concise and complete story of what happened.  Right the first time

Exit-  Rob- Well I’ll take your statement and turn it into a podcast. Thank you again for helping us. Where can we learn more about you?

Amanda- You can find me at eye on the target radio radio. I have a nationally syndicated radio show on Sunday night. Give us a listen and call in and talk with us.  I also instruct on the weekends.

Rob- Thanks again for the comments you’ve left on our podcast facebook page.

Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free.  All we ask is that you share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 127 with Tony Simon

Are you safe at home, as you shop, and as you drive? What should you if your family is attacked? Rob and Tony analyze four new examples of armed defense. (20 minute audio)

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us and welcome to episode 127 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self defense instructor Tony Simon.

Tony- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working and shooting and.. diversity shoot, minute man challenge.

I noticed you had a problem with the last podcast.

Rob- Apple didn’t like one of the settings from our podcast host, so they shut us down until I changed the language setting from american english to “EN”.

Tony, how do you listen to the show?

Tony- I listen to it on.. my phone as I drive to work.

Rob- That is how most people listen. Please put us in your pocket every week, and give us rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher. Please leave a comment to tell us what you liked about the show.

Please introduce our podcast to our new listeners.

Tony- We study several examples where gun owners survived a life threatening situation. Were they lucky, or did they have a plan? What should we do if we were in their place? Our first story took place last week in Millcreek, Utah.

Rob- First story-  Are you armed as you stop to buy a cup of coffee?  

You’re sitting in a coffee shop when a man comes in and starts yelling. He hits the employee behind the counter in the back of the head. She backs up, and her attacker hits her again and again. The other employees run away. The attacker then hits the woman with a metal crate from the counter. She falls to the floor and he starts kicking her.

You get up and yell at the attacker to stop. He rushes toward you. You have a concealed carry permit. You’re armed. You shoot the attacker once in the chest, and your attacker runs from the store. You wait there for police to arrive.

The police had to taze your attacker several times in order to arrest him. The injured employee said she remembers you, but never knew you were armed.

Tony- Crazy man on drugs and a repeat offender. He was running from the police when he ran into the coffee shop. In training we use real stories just like this to set up force on force and shooting problems.

Rob- No warning for the clerk.

Tony- Never expect a fair fight, bad guys looks for victims not for challenges. The defender was in his late 60s and the attacker was 37 years old. When you carry a firearm you should have really thought about the real choices that you have to make, like can I shoot an unarmed but dangerous attacker?

Rob- Is that enough disparity in physical size and strength to justify the use of lethal force?

Tony-We are not the police we have No duty to defend others. A concealed carry permit isn’t a badge and we need to know what our state laws are regarding lethal force. As responsible armed citizen we must decide if we would intervene to save another person’s life with deadly force. Can you live with yourself if this woman is beaten to death in front of you while you have the means to stop it from happening?

Rob- Duty to warn?

Tony- You don’t need to tell the bad guy that you have a gun or warn him in any way. At times it may not even be smart to warn him.  No duty to warn, but it does make your legal defense much easier because you can testify on your own behalf that the assailant tried to attack you.

Rob-  

Tony- As a armed citizen that has used his firearm in a confrontation you must call the police as soon as it is safe to do so. I have not read anywhere that the good guy called the police. He may have but we don’t know
Rob- Anything else?

Tony- That is enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Chesterfield County, Virginia.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed at home?   

It is almost 10AM on a Saturday morning when you hear a crunching sound from your back door. Your whole house shakes. You go to see what is going on. A stranger kicks through your back door. You shout for him to stop. You’re armed. He enters your home and you shoot him. He runs away, and you call police.

The police find your robber on your front lawn. He was wounded in the foot. This was his second robbery and break in this morning.

Tony- 9am on Saturday morning isn’t the time most people think that a home invasion will take place. The back door was obviously locked because the intruder made noise breaking in. That gave the homeowner a warning that someone had breached their perimeter in other words kicked in their door.

Rob- Any duty to run away if someone breaks into your home?

Tony- Virginia case law assumes that someone breaking into your house is there to hurt you. These stories are never clear about where the good guy gets their gun. We need to ask ourselves, where would our defensive firearm be at 9am on a Saturday morning? If its not on your body could you get to it if you had to fight off a 19 year old attacker? But I want to ask another question. Where did this gun appear from? Was he carrying? Was it in his bedroom and he had to get it and run to the back of the house?

Rob- The article doesn’t say.

Tony- Marksmanship, the ability to put rounds where they need to go is very important for the armed citizen. We are good guys and responsible for every round we fire. The homeowner shot this guy in the foot! I am going to go out on a limb here and say that shot placement was unintentional. POGO, and practice so you can quickly shoot center of someone’s chest from 5 yards. You want your shot to physically stop a threat not leave it up to the bad guy to decide if he keeps attacking you or runs away.

Rob- Why is that?

Tony- A gun is lethal force. That is only justified if you face a lethal threat. I can’t say this enough, take a class that covers the use of deadly force where you live. We are good guys and we always want to make sure we are following the law. If it isn’t a lethal threat, then it isn’t a gun problem and you should run away or use other tools. If it is a lethal threat, then stop the threat immediately.

Tony- f you can get away form a deadly threat do so but if you have family that can’t leave then you must defend them also.You might be able to run away. You can’t do that if you have a family to protect.

Our third story happened last week near New Haven, Connecticut.

Rob- First this message from my friends at Armed Lutheran Radio.

Give a listen at http://www.armedlutheran.us/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed when you’re sitting in your car?

It is 10pm, and you’re sitting in your car waiting for your cousin. You see your cousin walk out of his house. A stranger walks past him, and you hear them shout. You get out of the car, and the stranger stabs you. You are a registered gun owner. You also have your carry permit. You’re armed. You draw your gun and shoot your attacker.

You call police.

Tony- Police say the attack was unprovoked. This happens more than people think. The world has some mentally disturbed people that are very dangerous to those around them.

Rob- Justified? He has a knife and you have a gun.

Tony- A knife is deadly force. A knife attack is very dangerous especially a unprovoked knife attack because many people think that they got punched and don’t know that they have been stabbed. Stab wounds are much more deadly and you may be unaware that you are in a stabbing not a fistfight.  You’re allowed to use any tool if you face a lethal threat. You don’t have to fight fair, in fact, fighting fair is a horrible strategy.

Tony- After being stabbed the armed citizen drew his gun from concealment, fired one round, hit the bad guy in the chest and stopped the attack immediately. Good shooting. One shot and that ended the attack.

Rob- So the victim was stabbed, then he drew his gun from under his shirt, and shot the attacker.

Tony- That sounds difficult, but I train ordinary people to do that in our classes.

Rob- How would I learn to do that?

Tony- We teach the firearms portion and we bring in experts to cover both medical and police interaction.

Step at a time.

I teach firearms safety so you are safe as you handle your gun.

Basic marksmanship, so you can consistently manipulate a gun and hit your target.

Concealed carry, so you can draw from under your clothing and stop an attack.


Ask for the police and medical attention.

Say that you’ll help the investigators after you talk to your lawyer. That is exactly what the police are told to say if they are involved in a shooting. If it is good enough for them, then it is good enough for you.

That said, if you’ve thought about what to say, then you can point out evidence..like the bloody knife in the bushes where your attacker dropped it.

Rob- Do you talk about that with your students?

Rob- Let’s go on to our fourth story.

Tony- Forth story? We usually do three stories.

Rob- Our listeners left us a message on the podcast facebook page and asked for a fourth story. If you like more stories, then let us know. If you want a shorter podcast, then let us know that as well.

Tony- Our forth story took place in Colorado Springs.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed when you’re at home late at night?

You hear your wife scream. A strange is trying to get into your home. It is after dinner. You hear your wife run upstairs. You grab your pistol and run down stairs to see what is going on. A stranger comes through the back hallway and attacks you. You shoot him. The attacker runs outside. Your wife has already called police.

The police have to taze your attacker several times to get him into handcuffs.  EMTs transport the 20 year old attacker to the hospital.

Tony- Have a plan. During a home invasion isn’t the time to say “ OMG, what am I going to do?” You are already a victim and time isn’t on your side. A plan adds time. You can react much quicker if you have a plan because you can implement it immediately. My wife screams “Someone is breaking into the house!!” I know what I’m doing next. I fact I’ve practiced and trained for that very emergency.

Tony- Lock your doors. ‘Of course I lock my doors” says everyone. I’ve been a locksmith since the early 90’s and have tons of stories of bad guy walking into homes through unlocked doors.

Tony- Stay upstairs. Searching for a bad guy we call that clearing a structure isn’t something that you want to do at all much less alone. If your family is secure upstairs don’t risk getting ambushed downstairs by one or more people. If you are hidden at the top of the stairs, the bad guy has to come to you and the only way is up the stairs. You have the advantage of surprise and knowing where they will appear.

Tony- Have your defensive tools with you. POGO

Tony- Call the police and ask for help ASAP. Have a safe room. It doesn’t have to be anything elaborate. A solid door, a deadbolt, a phone that you have on you to call for help.

Maybe you won’t have to kill someone if you’re locked into your upstairs bedroom while the police tackle the idiot downstairs.

Talk with an instructor and figure out what to say to the police. Everything is recorded and will be used against you.
Exit-  Rob- that wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Tony- Tony- My website is Diversityshoot.com You can find me on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train and The 2nd is For Everyone podcast.

Rob- Let us know what you think. Do you like the longer podcast with four stories? Do you want more personal news from our instructors? Leave us a message on the podcast facebook page.  

Tony- We share this podcast with you for free.  All we ask is that you share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 126 with Jeff Street

Are you safe at home? What should you if your family is attacked? We discuss four new examples of armed defense.

Rob- Introduction- I’m glad you found us and welcome to episode 126 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self defense instructor Jeff Street.

Jeff- Hi, Rob.  Gabe White’s pistol shooting solutions, Private Coaching, Shooting Matches, Scoot n Shoots, and We will have 6 GLOCKs to give away at our Everglades GLOCK Range Event.

Rob- Jeff, how do you listen to the show?

Jeff– I listen to it on my iphone utilizing the Downcast podcatcher app.

Rob- That is how most people listen. You have our podcast in your pocket every week. Please give us rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher. Jeff, would you introduce our podcast to our new listeners.

Jeff- We study several examples where gun owners survived a life threatening situation. Were they lucky, or did they have a plan about what to do? What should we do if we were in their place?

Our first story took place last week in Portland, Oregon.

Rob- First story-  Are you armed as you have a yard sale at your parents house?  

Your mom and dad are having a yard sale, and you said you’d stick around to help. Your mom saw someone stuffing clothing into her handbag. Your mom and dad asked her to stop that. Instead of returning the items, the stranger sprayed you mom and dad with pepper spray, and tried to stab your dad with a knife. You stepped inside and got the family shotgun. You pointed the shotgun at the attacker and told her to leave.

She saw the gun and ran.  You called police. The police said the young woman was lucky she was not shot and killed.

Jeff- 1st let’s look at avoidance.  We try to keep the pool of people who have been on our property or inside our home to a minimum.  In our neighborhood the nearby county park lets you rent a space once a month for a community yard sale.  They had no clue who would show up to their property.

This crazy woman looked normal in her mugshot photo.

I like this story because it’s the most likely defensive gun use scenario in that no shots were fired.  The scarry shotgun got the job done. You still need to call 911 as soon as possible so law enforcement can hear your side of the story 1st. This type of Defensive gun use rarely makes the news.

Of course we must add POGO pants on gun on.

Sounds like she had mental health issues.

The time while you went inside to get a gun could have cost your parents their lives.

Have a good plan. “We’ll get our gun.” might not work if it is hundreds of feet away while you’re out at your mailbox. You only have the tools that are within reach.

Jeff- Having a gun can stop the confrontation from escalating, so it would have been better if the family was armed with firearms on their bodies.

Rob- Do you talk to your students about what to do if someone in your family is attacked?

Rob- This took place at a yard sale. In your shooting classes, do you include targets that you don’t want to shoot?

Rob- What did our defender do correctly?

Jeff- Good restraint that the son tried verbal commands and did not shoot when he saw that the verbal commands worked. Good restrain in not following the attacker.

Rob- I’m imagining that someone tried to stab my dad. I can’t holster a shotgun, so I have to go back inside and put it away. I have the same problem with a handgun if I don’t have a holster. What do I do with the gun when I need two hands.

Next question is, can I stop the bleeding?

Jeff- That is enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Warsaw, Missouri.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed when you go out to eat at a restaurant? 

It is late. You’re getting ready to leave a restaurant when you hear an explosion from the parking lot. At first you wonder if a car crashed into the sign outside and blew up. You hear it again, and then one of the restaurant windows shatters. Some crazy guy is shooting at the place. People are jumping out of their chairs and diving for the floor.

You have your carry permit, You’re armed. You move so there isn’t anyone in front of you, and you shoot at the attacker. Now he drives away. Lots of people call police. Amazingly, no one inside the restaurant is seriously hurt.

The intoxicated attacker was upset about a game of pool. He was arrested and charged with armed criminal action, 1st degree assault, and unlawful possession of a weapon.

Jeff- The police had been called after the crazy guy made credible threats.  The police came took statements and left. Then the crazy guy shows up.

It looks like the attacker was shooting from inside his car.  So our citizen hero shot at the car which caused the attacker to flee in his car.  

Our citizen defender had to respond very quickly, yet he took the time to move to a position where he wouldn’t be endangering bystanders.

Rob- Most attacks are face to face. This one was at a distance.

Jeff- sometimes you can use verbal commands. I’m betting this man was drunk, so verbal commands would not have worked in this case.

Rob- What else did you notice.

Jeff- I noticed that the defender had innocent people near him and had to move in order to have a clear shot.

Rob- We don’t want to hurt innocent people. Do you talk with your students about moving with a gun?

Rob- Do they get to practice moving around a target, a simulated person, that they don’t want to shoot, they don’t even want to point their gun at an innocent person.

Jeff- good restraint in that the defender stopped when the attack stopped.

Jeff- medical training. Our third story happened last week outside of Wichita, Kansas.

Rob- First this message from my friends at the Second Amendment Foundation.

Please join and support the Second Amendment Foundation at SAF.org

Rob- Third story- Are you armed when you’re driving your truck?

You’re driving along the street at 9 pm. A car pulls into the street right in front of you. You have to change lanes to keep from hitting the car. You pull back into the right lane and proceed on your way.  They car passes you, and then stops, blocking both lanes. The driver gets out of the car, walks up to your truck and demands money. You tell him to go away. The robber starts smashing windows of your truck.

You draw your firearm and shoot him. Now you call police.

You’re not charged. The robber’s family say he suffered from mental illness.

Jeff- our Defender was blocked in and couldn’t drive away. Once the window was broken our defender was in legitimate fear for his life.  Shooting the Crazy attacker was the only course left. Good thing he had his gun ready to use. The attacker died. Our defender probably had excellent shot placement.  The attacker may have seen the gun and still continued the attack. Well placed shots were the only answer. At this point we need immediate incapacitation.

mentioned in the previous story, that drunk people don’t respond to verbal commands. Crazy people don’t listen either.

Jeff- Again, no time to get a gun from home, or to go get ammunition and load it. By the time you recognize that you have a gun problem, you need your defensive tool right now.

Jeff- Drive away if you can.

Jeff- Use necessary force. It sounds like the victim stopped shooting when the attacker was no longer a threat.

Jeff- Call police. You want to identify yourself as the victim of a crime. Ask for police and EMTs.

Jeff- Call your lawyer.

Rob- Do we see attacks like this very often?

Jeff- There are thousands of attacks outside the home every day.

Rob- Let’s go on to our fourth story.

Jeff- Forth story? We usually do three stories.

Rob- Our listeners left us a message on the podcast facebook page and asked for a fourth story. If you like more stories, then let us know. If you want a shorter podcast, then let us know that as well.

Jeff- Our fourth story happened last week in Racine, Wisconsin.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you get into your car to go to work?

You’re running a little late and getting ready to leave for work. You hear two kids scream from in front of your house. You look up and see two kids being attacked by a dog, and the dog is about as big as they are. You run to the street and the dog stops biting the two kids. Now the 80 pound pit bull lunges at you.

You have your carry permit. You’re armed. You draw and shoot the dog. Evidently it wasn’t a fatal wound, and the dog runs back to it yard. You shout for help to treat the kids. Then you holster your gun and call police and EMTs.

The EMT take the children to the hospital to treat the bite wounds on their legs and feet. The dog has bitten strangers before.

Jeff- our hero stopped the attack on the kids but then the dog came after him.   Its difficult to hit a small fast moving target. The problem that you or i find ourselves in may be one that requires a higher degree of technical skill.  That is why we continue to train.

That is why Wait. let me go inside and open my gun safe and then get my ammunition that I keep stored in a separate location, and then load my gun, and then run to the scene to help.

Rob- There wasn’t time for that.

Jeff- People are attacked in their home and outside their home. I’m proud of this man for moving toward the sound of the screams to protect the kids. I’m also glad he wasn’t bitten himself. It shows good planning that he had a gun to protect himself and the children. The news reports say the dog and the older child weighed about 80 pounds. They were walking to the school bus stop down the street.

Rob- It was safe every other day.

Jeff- Yes, but that doesn’t mean it will be safe today or tomorrow.

Rob- Do you talk about this with your students?

Rob- It isn’t easy to shoot a small moving target with other people around.

Jeff- And the defender only grazed the animal. That means the bullet stopped somewhere else. You might be shooting down at a concrete or asphalt surface, and a bullet can skip off and head down the street into your neighbor’s house.

Rob- You might not be able to back up because the kids are behind you. How do you train your students to handle these situations?

Jeff- Small steps. Safety, concealed carry, advanced problems.

We get to practice all kinds of unusual shots out at the range. Those are things you probably can’t do at your usual shooting range where you rent a stall and have someone standing  and shooting right next to you.

Put your gun away.

Call for help.

Treat the injured. Medical training and equipment.

Call 911

Talk to the police.

Exit-  Rob- that wraps up this episode. Jeff, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Jeff- Contact us at Step by Step Gun Training in Naples Florida.  We provide custom training courses as well as group classes. Leave a message for us on the Step by Step Facebook page.

Rob- Let us know what you think. Do you like the longer podcast with four stories? Do you want more personal news from our instructors? Leave us a message on the podcast facebook page.  We have an inbox there if you don’t want to leave your message in public.

Jeff- We share this podcast with you for free.  All we ask is that you share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 125 with Andee Reardon

Can you defend yourself and your customers at work? What should you do when the police arrive? We discuss four new examples of armed defense. (23 minute audio)

I’m glad you found us. Welcome to episode 125 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self defense instructor Andee Reardon.

Andee- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working and shooting and enjoying some outdoor activities here in Maine.

Rob- Andee, how do you listen to the show?

Andee– I listen to it on my phone while I drive

Rob- That is how most people listen. Please put us in your pocket every week, and give us rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher. Please leave a comment to tell us what you liked about the show.

Andee- A listener left us a message about one of our stories where a couple who went to buy a camera and got mugged. He asks how many times you have to let your girlfriend be punched before lethal force is justified. Alone, she would easily be justified to use lethal force to defend herself, but can she really claim disparity of force while you’re standing right there?

Further, my girlfriend is a former UFC fighter. Does that mean I would have been disallowed to employ a firearm completely until the attacker produces a weapon?

Andee- It’s really important to know the laws in your state.

Our first story took place last week in Columbia, South Carolina.

Rob- First story-  Are you armed when you work behind the counter?

It is time to close up, clean up the restaurant, and go home. You look up from behind the cash register to see a man dressed in black clothes. He has a black mask over his face. He also has a black gun in his hand, and the gun is pointed at you. The robber says to open the cash register. You and your co-worker open the drawer and step back.

The robber reaches over the counter to grab the cash. That is when your co-worker reaches across the counter and grabs the robbers gun. You are armed. You present your firearm and shoot the robber as the two men struggle.

Now your attacker lets go of his gun. You and your co-worker run into the back room, but then come back out because you’ve left your customers unguarded. The robber is lying at the front of your store and you call 911.

Andee- Great that the defender had a gun on his body.

Rob- He didn’t have enough time to go back into the office where some store owners keep their gun. HE had his gun on him when he needed it.

Andee- Exactly, and our defender waited his turn. He was legally justified to use his gun as soon as he saw the robber threaten people with a gun. It met the legal standard of a lethal and immediate threat. Drawing right then leads to a gunfight. You’d rather wait until you get to shoot them and they don’t get to shoot you.

Rob- So he waited until the robber was involved with his co-worker, and the co-worker didn’t have to win the wrestling match with the robber.

Andee- All our defender needed was a fraction of a second head start so he could shoot the attacker first. His co-worker gave him the time he needed to draw his gun without being shot.

Rob- Do you think they had a plan?

Andee- I think he thought about it before it happened. He recognized the opportunity the instant the robber had his attention on struggling for his gun.

Rob- Anything else?

Andee- I like that they retreated to safety rather than chasing the robber. I also like that they worried about the rest of the customers.

You want to honor the witnesses.

Rob- What does it mean to honor the witnesses?

Andee- Tell the customers to get back away from the attacker so they are safe. The attacker might have another gun or an accomplice. If you can, you want the customers and staff to stay at the restaurant. Ask them if they are hurt. Have them there for the police to interview.

Rob- is there more?

Andee- This attack happened in South Carolina, so you don’t need a permit to carry behind the counter of your business. It would be foolish to survive an attack at your store, and then be attacked as you took the money to the bank. South Carolina is a shall issue state, so anyone who is legally eligible to own a gun is eligible to take the training and get a carry permit.

Rob- Good point. Do many of your business owners have their carry permits?

Andee- A lot of my students are small business owners.

Rob- Do you teach them how to draw a gun from a concealed holster?

Andee- I do. I feel it’s important to train for any possible scenarios. I’m a big advocate of carrying on the body, but that’s not enough. You need that muscle memory that comes from practicing your draw and firing on the range.

Our second story happened last week in Macon County, Missouri.

Rob- Second Story- Do you have a gun nearby when you’re asleep at home.

You hear someone inside your house. It is four in the morning. You roll out of bed and grab your gun. Before you can lock your bedroom door, the intruder is in your room and he’s pointing something at you.  It is a nail gun. You shout for him to leave.

Instead of leaving, the attacker drops the nail gun and draws a handgun from the waist of his pants. Now you shoot him. The attacker shoots back, but misses you. Your attacker falls down and you run from the room.  You call police.

The police say that the attacker used a ladder to get in an upstairs sliding glass door that was left open. The attacker was also carrying methamphetamine.

Andee- I talk about leaving doors and windows unlocked in my classes, it’s an intruder’s favorite way to enter- it’s easy and quiet. Balconies are often left unlocked because homeowners think they are hard to reach, ladders make it very accessible and often homeowners leave those outside. By securing your windows and doors, you’re creating an obstacle that an intruder can’t pass without making noise which will hopefully wake you. If you’re a sound sleeper, window and door alarms are fairly cheap and easy to install. Noise and time are your friend because they give you a chance to grab your gun and prepare.

Rob- The robber came in the bedroom and pointed a nail gun at the homeowner.

Andee- If you have your gun in your hand and are behind your bed, then you can yell at the robber to leave. A nail gun isn’t a lethal threat at that distance. A real firearm is a distance tool, and the homeowner defended himself when the robber drew a gun that presented an immediate and unavoidable threat.

Rob- So you have your gun pointed at the intruder. If they are at the other end of the house with a knife you can’t shoot them, but if they have a gun then you can?

Andee- and you should shoot because your life is being threatened right now, and if they are between you and the door then you can’t escape the threat.

Rob- Say that you’ve shot someone in your room. They fall down. What do you do now?

Andee- That is a hard question. You’d like to grab your phone and your clothes..but those might be back in the bedroom. Depending on where you live and the time of year, you might run out of the house to be safe.

Rob- Maybe run to a neighbor’s house and ask them to call the police?

Andee- Unless you live up here in Maine and it’s the wintertime. Everyone should make a plan ahead of time as to what they would do in different emergencies and let family members and people in the house know those plans also.

Rob- Do you talk about this with your students?

Andee- We talk a lot about planning ahead, muscle memory and how those thing are important when you’re under stress.

Our third story happened last week in Roanoke, Virginia.

Rob- First this message about my good friends at Gun Freedom Radio.

Listen to Gun Freedom Radio at http://gunfreedomradio.com

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?

It is three in the morning. You’re working at an all night gaming parlor. A stranger walks in, and before you know it, you hear a gunshot. Now the stranger yells for everyone to get down on the floor, and he fires his gun again.

You’re armed. You draw your gun and shoot the robber. He falls to the floor and drops his gun.

You take the criminal’s gun and call the police.

The police arrest the getaway driver.

Andee- I like that the defender was armed. Here is what I tell my students to do. First, if possible, take cover. Then shoot.

Rob- Why is that the first thing to do?

Andee- We want to cheat. We want to have the bad guy standing in the open and being a great big target, while we are hard to see, and even harder to shoot. It is pretty natural to drop behind a counter if you hear a loud noise.

Rob- Announcing yourself with a gun would make a lot of people jump, so everyone was probably moving and ducking down wouldn’t draw attention to you.

Andee- Again, honor the witnesses. Ask if they are hurt and need immediate help. Ask them to stay down, but to look around, see if anyone else is hurt or if there is anyone else with the attacker.

Rob- Should you disarm your attacker once they are down?

Andee- Yes, if you can do so safely. To protect others.

Call the police.

Give a short statement.

Clear lethal threat since the bad guy fired first.

Rob- lets go on to our forth story.

Andee- Forth story? We usually do three stories.

Rob- Our listeners left us a message on the podcast facebook page and about 80 percent wanted a fourth story.

Andee- I deserve a pay raise. Our last story took place in Cleveland, Ohio.

Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a gun accessible when you’re asleep at home?

You’re pretty sure someone just broke into your house downstairs. It is 2:30 in the morning. You get out of bed and grab your shotgun. You listen, and there are sounds coming from the first floor. You walk to the top of the stairs and wait.

You see a man turn the corner. You shout, “I’ll shoot you.” The intruder runs away. You call police. The intruder broke your kitchen window to get inside.

Andee- See? A locked window is easier to hear! The homeowner heard the noise of the window being pried open with a screwdriver. The homeowner was 68 years old. He used his shotgun as his defense gun and kept it ready.

Rob- So he probably didn’t want to go hand to hand.

Andee- He did not go investigate. He waited in a position of advantage. (good view. Only one direction of approach. You’re behind the wall or the floor, and they are out in the open. They have to work extra hard to come up the stairs to get to you.)

Rob- Should the homeowner have turned on the lights and shouted that he was armed?

Andee- Turning on lights is usually an advantage to the intruder- You already know the layout of your home. A tactical flashlight can be very useful though to help you see and blind the intruder. The homeowner didn’t chase the intruder, he waited. Calling out to warn you have a gun is important in some states so know the laws in yours.

Rob- Does this sort of attack happen very often?

Andee- There are lots of home break-ins. About one out of 40 of us will be the victim of a burglary or property crime each year. About 6 thousand of us defend themselves with a firearm every day, but I don’t know how many of those are the result of a robbery when the victim is at home. Here in the US, would-be robbers tend to pick homes at a time when no one is there. That being said, as the drug problem increases, these break-ins while the homeowner is present are becoming more frequent.

Rob- Do your students practice what to do in this situation?

Andee- Follow your safety plan: Get your tools, defend. Call police. Put your gun away when the police arrive.

Let the police clear the house rather than you doing it in the dark.

Exit-  Rob- that wraps up this episode. Andee, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Andee- Find me at EastCoastSchoolofSafety.com and on my facebook and Instagram pages with the same name. EastCoastSOS_ar

Rob- We appreciate the feedback we’ve received on having four stories. Leave us a message with comments or questions on the podcast facebook page and we’ll answer them on the show.

Andee- We share this podcast with you for free.  All we ask is that you share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

Rob- This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

Episode 132 with David Cole

Can you protect your family and your co-workers? How about treating the injured until help arrives? We have four new examples of armed defense.

Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 123 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. I’m glad you found us. This podcast is for people who are curious about a firearm for self-defense, and for those who already own one. I’m your host, Rob Morse. We’re joined this week by self defense instructor David Cole.

Hi, David.  You took on a new discipline besides martial arts and handgun competition.

David- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been practicing with my new bow. It’s a whole new challenge.

Rob- and getting better. How do you listen to the show?

David- I’m sort of “old school”…I actually still use an iPod for almost all of my listening. Who’d have thought an iPod would be “retro”? The easiest way for most people is probably with their cell phone.

Rob- That is how most people listen. Please put us in your pocket and give us rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher. Please leave a comment to tell us what you liked about the show.

Now that we’ve talked about how to listen, tell our new listeners what to expect.

David- We’re going to look at several news stories about armed defense.  These gun owners survived a life threatening situation. They succeeded, but were they lucky, or did they have a good plan? What should we do if we were in their place, and how would we learn those new skills?

Our first story took place last week in Kissimmee, Florida

Rob- First story-  Do you have a way to defend yourself when you meet someone to buy a cellphone?

You want a new cell phone. You searched around and found a seller on Craigslist. You agree to meet at nearby store. It is daylight and there are people around, so it looks safe enough.

You meet the seller and ask to see the phone. He raises the price and raises his voice. He angrily demands to see the money.

You are carrying your handgun concealed. The buyer gets angrier and he tells you to give him all your money. He reaches for his belt.

You step back and draw your handgun. You fire as you run away. The robber gets in his car and drives away. You call police.

The police find the robber and take him to a local hospital. They take the robber’s gun as evidence. Police book your attacker for armed robbery.

This story sounds scary, but is it that unusual?

David- Citizens defend themselves with guns thousands of times a day. Most are assaults in public.

Rob- What is the first thing we should do to defend ourselves?

David- Think about your defense now, and where your risks are. Daylight in a public place may present less risk, but any encounter involving meeting a stranger to exchange cash is not risk-free. Don’t buy into the falsehood that “it’s a safe neighborhood,” or worse, “it can’t happen to me”.

Call your police department and ask them if they have a place with video cameras so people can safely buy and sell face to face. Most do, and it doesn’t cost you a thing to be safer tomorrow.

Rob- It sounds like our defender carried a gun on his body when he was attacked.

David- Have your defensive tools.  Have a permit, if required in your state…but don’t stop there. Learn how to present, and then practice it.

Rob- Someone who doesn’t have a gun can’t master self-defense this afternoon. What are the stepping stones to get there.

David- The best, first thing that anyone can do is incorporate awareness and good personal safety habits into their daily life. Read! (Jeff Cooper, David Fowler, Steve Tarani, Andrew Branca) And you don’t need a gun of your own to get started. Many ranges and schools have loaners or rentals you can use…and that might be the best way to learn which gun you might want to purchase. Then once you’ve made that decision, continue to train and practice.

That is enough for now. Our second story happened last week in Greenville, South Carolina.

Rob- Second Story-  Are you armed as you leave home and get in your car?   

You own a gun. You have your concealed carry permit. You put your gun on as you dress for the day. You’re walking out to your truck parked in the driveway. As you open the door to climb in you see someone come around the corner of your house. He is wearing dark clothes, a sweatshirt, a hat, and has a bandana over his face. He says something, but it is hard to understand him.He also has a gun in his hand. You’re not used to seeing a gun pointed at you, but it is clear you’re being robbed.

You move out of the way as your attacker fires at you. You draw your gun and fire at him. He runs away. You run back in the house and call police.

You are shaking with excitement, but you’re not hit. The police find the bullet holes in your truck and your house where the robber fired as he ran away.

David- Being both prepared and aware made the difference. Not only did our citizen have his defensive firearm on his person…where it should be!…he also had his head up and his eyes open. This allowed him to see the threat and react.

Rob- What would you tell a beginner to do?

David- Drop the keys and run.

Rob- What did our defender do correctly?

David- When the would-be robber decided he had urgent business elsewhere, our good guy let him go. Don’t chase the bad guys. A concealed carry license does not make us police officers; we carry to defend, not to apprehend. Take care of your own safety, and call the police.

Rob- Two interactions w the police. 911 and then with officers who arrive. What do you tell your students to do?

David- Be the first to call. I personally plan to give the dispatcher my physical description, and to let them know that I am licensed and armed. Do not have a gun in your hand when the police roll up…don’t assume that they know you are the good guy. Show them empty hands, and expect to be handcuffed until they sort things out.

Rob- What could our good guy have done better?

David- Practice shooting, because our good guy missed. A more committed robber may have pressed the attack, and misses don’t count.

Rob- Most people don’t practice that way when they go to  the range. They don’t practice as if their life depended on the first shot.

David-  Stepstones. Safety, routine handling, concealed carry, presentation and self-defense.

Rob- What else do you notice.
David- Well, I couldn’t help but notice that in the video interview of our good guy, he happily shows the interviewer his revolver…with his finger on the trigger. He won the day, but he could clearly use a bit more training. Shooting yourself is a less than ideal way to begin a gunfight.

Rob- Sounds like our defender has to go back to a firearms safety class.

David- We cover review that in every class. Our next story took place in Louisville, Kentucky.

Rob- Fist this message from my friends at CPRC

Please support the Crime Prevention Research Center at
http://crimeresearch.org/

Rob- third story- Are you armed as you sit in your office?

A customer comes into your office. He needs some paperwork processed for a car he bought. The man seems upset and argues with one of the clerks who is trying to help him. Finally, the clerks ask him to leave. The customer says he is going to get a gun and come back and shoot up the place.

The two clerks in the front of the store step outside to see if the customer is coming back. The customer shoots at the two clerks.

That is when you get up from your desk. You are a gun owner. You have your carry permit and are armed. You shoot at the attacker and he runs. You call police and ask for EMTs to treat your injured friends.

The police ask if you know who attacked your co-workers. Of course you do since he gave you his name and address.

A K9 unit finds the attackers gun near the scene of the crime. Police arrest your attacker. He had a previous drug conviction. This time he is charged with two counts of assault, possession of a handgun by a convicted felon, wanton endangerment, tampering with physical evidence, trafficking a controlled substance, possession of a controlled substance.

David- The most important thing I learned during my time as a police officer is that there are no “Mayberrys”. There are truly bad, violent people in your world. There are career criminals who view you as simply an obstacle to what they want. They do not value life as we do, and have zero concern for you.

Rob- What should we do.

David- POGO. Be alert, be vigilant. Have defensive tools and the skills to use them.

At home. At the office. This was Kentucky, so you can get your CCW. You could carry as you go to lunch or to the bank…and not all businesses are “gun free zones.”

Rob- You could start to make your family safer today even if you won’t have your permit until tomorrow.

David- Kentucky has made it very easy to get a CCDW. After completing a 6-8 hour training class, you can apply either at your Sheriff’s office or online through the Kentucky State Police. The online process is extremely quick, and I have heard of people actually having their license in hand in less than 7 days from submitting their application. Easier to transport to your office with CCW, and a lot of states have “parking lot laws” which allow you to have your gun in your vehicle, even if they don’t let you carry in the office. With this, at least you are able to defend yourself to and from work. The good guy with a gun stopped an attack and saved his co-workers.

Rob- You gave us a plan to be armed. What should we do if this were our office?

David- Ask for help. Treat the injured. Call police. Go get a medical kit and training.

Rob- Did you see injured people as an LEO.

David- Absolutely. And in my current role in corporate security, one of the things I teach is a personal safety and self defense class. In it, one of the things I emphasize is having both the tools and training to care for yourself or others medically until help arrives. I want to keep my family alive until EMTs arrive.

Rob- Even the simplest story is complex. Let’s stop here and go on to our fourth story.

David- I noticed that we’re using four stories now.

Rob- Thank you for listening.

David- Our fourth story took place in Madison, Wisconsin.

Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a gun nearby as you get up out if bed in the middle of the night?

At first you’re not sure if you hear something or not. You listen, and now you’re sure. Someone is breaking into your house. You go to your gun safe and get your handgun. You see the intruder come in through the kitchen window. You shout for him to leave. He does, and in a hurry. Your wife calls the police. You both go check on the two children in the house. Police noticed where the robber cut through your window screens.

David- I like this family. Do you know why the homeowner heard the burglar prying open the window before the intruder got inside the house? He heard the burglar because the homeowner locked his doors. The burglar couldn’t walk in, he had to break in and make noise. Again, don’t assume you live in Mayberry…you don’t.

It starts out as a simple burglary…perhaps the criminal didn’t expect anyone to be home. The problem comes when a resident is home, and things become violent. Then it’s a robbery. A common bit of advice we hear is, “just give them what they want.” But it doesn’t always end there. Better to be armed.

Rob- There were young children in the home. I think they were 5 and 6 years old. How do you keep your gun so you can get it but your children can’t? Fast access safe?

David- The homeowner gave a good description of the intruder. So even though the story doesn’t mention a flashlight or if the homeowner turned on the lights, I think he did.

Rob- so even if I have a dusty gun up on a closet shelf, I should also have a flashlight next to it?

David- Don’t shoot at what you can’t see. It’s difficult to shoot accurately in the dark, and is extremely risky legally and morally. Don’t plan for it. Don’t do it. Plan for a light. Get a light, and practice with a light.

The suspect is described as a white man in his 20’s with an athletic/slender build. He has shoulder-length dirty blonde hair parted down the middle. He was wearing a gray zip-up hooded sweatshirt.

Rob- Did the homeowner have the right to point a gun at an intruder?

David- Yes, but you need to be able to articulate a threat.

Rob- Is there more?

David- Rob- That is enough for now. We’ll be back after this message from Faster Colorado.

Please support Coloradans for Civil Liberties

Exit-  Rob- That wraps up this episode. David Cole, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- My training website is Aegis Solutions  on Facebook, and I’m also at BlackManWithAGun.com

Rob- Let us know what you think. Do you like the longer podcast with four stories? Do you want more personal news from our instructors? Leave us a message on the podcast facebook page.  We have an inbox there if you don’t want to leave your message in public.

David-  We share this podcast with you for free.  All we ask is that you share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.  We’re also available on Google Play Music and Spotify.

This podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find the other shows at sdrn.us

Rob- I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.