Episode 326 with Amanda Suffecool

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Introduction-

Rob- Welcome to episode 326 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. What has been keeping you so busy?

Amanda- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been fighting the 2A fight, showing up boots on the ground in Tennessee and Massachusetts.   Supporting programs like DCProject, Women for Gun Rights, and Faster Saves Lives.   And I finally got off my duff and ordered a new gun.  

How about you?

Rob- I’m dry practicing a couple times a week as I work on the FBI handgun qualification test.

Texas-Beth left us a message. She has been catching up on the episodes, and she said one of our stories was wild. She collects ideas from our podcast and shares them with the other women in her Armed Women of America chapter.

Amanda- Beth gave us a thank you, but again, you guys are doing the work of staying safe and sharing what you learn with other gun owners.   These all women shooting groups are doing more for firearms education than anything I have seen in years. 

Dwayne said he likes the podcast.

Roger and Michael gave us their comments on the stories.

Rob- Thank you, Beth, Dwayne, Roger and Michael. We are still in a three way tie for the most listened to second amendment podcast in the US. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

If you listen to the podcast and will be at the San Diego County Gun Owners Annual Banquet, then please look for me and say hello.

Amanda- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive?

You are filling your car with gas at 10:30 at night. You’re sitting in the driver’s seat when a stranger runs up to your car. He pulls open the door and drags you out of your seat.

He grabs you in a bear hug from behind before he throws you to the ground. He demands your keys and your purse. You’re armed. You give him your handgun instead, mussle first.

You shoot your attacker. He draws a gun and shoots you. You both separate and stop shooting. You run inside the gas station and ask for help.

Police officers who were patrolling nearby heard your gunshots. They arrive at the scene in less than a minute. EMS treats your wounds and takes you to the hospital. They also transport your attacker.

Your attacker is arrested and jailed when he leaves the hospital. You are not charged.

What did our defender do to save her life.

Amanda- I’m glad that our defender recognized that she needed to be armed in public. She decided to carry concealed and on body. She recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her life and acted accordingly. It is hard to start your defense from laying on your back on the ground, but she caught up fast. She drew her gun and fired at the attacker hitting him multiple times even after being thrown to the ground. Even though she was shot in the leg, the defender was able to retreat to the inside of the store. This gave her cover, lights, cameras and witnesses. She didn’t run away from danger, she ran towards safety. Excellent Job

Rob- Is there anything else you’d ask your students to do at night when they stop to fill up their car?

Amanda-  Most carjackings can be prevented by simply locking the car’s doors Your car doors should always be locked whether you are in the car or not. Even when filling the car with gas.  We have all seen those low sliding bad guys creeping up to a car to steal your purse from the passenger door. Don’t let that be you. 

People are very vulnerable when they are pumping gas. Make sure to put your head on a swivel and pay attention to others around you. Watch people’s hands and make a plan for what you would do if you were approached. Also be prepared for more than one attacker and be aware that many times, one attacker distracts you from the front while another one attacks you from behind.

The defender was able to shoot the bad guy multiple times but he was still able to return fire and hit the defender in the leg. If possible, move to cover/concealment and keep shooting until the threat is over. That may take only one shot or the whole magazine. Police and friends of mine train for the need to shoot while laying on your back – have you ever?

At some time during or after the gunfight, the defender wisely retreated to the inside of the store. Someone in the store should have secured the doors, moved the customers in the store away from the windows (which are not bulletproof) and turned off the interior lights. That makes it much harder for the bad guy and his friends to continue the attack.

Have a tourniquet and training so you can stop the bleeding? I think it is important to have trauma training. We carry a gun to protect our life and the life of others. We can save a life by providing care after we stop the threat.  Many of my trauma trained folks carry two tourniquets – one for themselves and one to help others.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The defender was trained and armed at the time of the attack.
• She recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her life and acted accordingly.
• She drew her handgun, fired at the attacker and got multiple hits after being thrown to the ground. 
• Even though she was shot in the leg, the defender was able to retreat to the inside of the store. This gave her cover, lights, cameras and witnesses. She didn’t run away from danger, she ran towards safety.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Some carjackings can be prevented by simply locking the car’s doors and/or using the seatbelt. Your car doors should always be locked whether you are in the car or not. Even when filling the car with gas. 
• People are very vulnerable when they are pumping gas. Put your head on a swivel and pay attention to others around you. Watch people’s hands and make a plan for what you would do if you were approached. Be prepared for more than one attacker. Be aware that many times one attacker distracts you from the front while another one attacks you from behind. 
• The defender was able to shoot the bad guy multiple times but he was still able to return fire and hit the defender in the leg. If possible, move to cover/concealment and keep shooting until the threat is over. That may take only one shot or the whole magazine. Also, be sure to scan for other attackers. Be prepared to deal with them if needed. 
• The defender was fortunate that there were other people in the store when she was shot and needed help. Did the defender or someone in the store have the training and the equipment to stop the bleeding from the gunshot to her leg? If the femoral artery is hit, a person can bleed out in about a minute without treatment. It is critical to have trauma training if you are to carry a firearm. 
• During the gunfight, the defender wisely retreated to the inside of the store. Someone in the store should have secured the doors, moved the customers in the store away from the windows (which are not bulletproof) and turned off the interior lights. You never know when the bad guy or his friends may choose to continue the attack. 
• Learning how to shoot on the ground can be invaluable for this exact situation. It will take practice and training however.

Rob- Anything else?

Amanda- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Metairie, Louisiana.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work?

You’re driving your cab. It is one in the morning and you drop off a fare and find a place to park. A stranger walks up to the driver’s side door of your car. He orders you to hand over your money. The stranger has a gun in his hands.

You’re armed. The news reports aren’t clear about how you did it, but you present your firearm and shoot your attacker several times. Your attacker turns away and you stop shooting. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help.

You put your gun away before the police arrive. You give the police a statement about what happened. Police identify your attacker. He matches the description of a suspect who robbed a store yesterday and two other cabs that night. Your attacker is pronounced dead at the scene.

You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda- The defender had a dangerous job. He carried a gun at work and probably had a plan for if they were attacked. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to his/her life, so they drew their gun and fired multiple shots hitting the attacker. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker turned away and the threat had stopped. The defender did not pursue the attacker. The defender stayed at the scene, put the gun away so as not to present a threat to the police when they arrived, and he gave a brief statement.

Rob- Are there other things that weren’t covered in the story?

Amanda-  Drawing and shooting a handgun while seated in a car is not easy. It takes training and practice to do it quickly and safely. Did he have a plan in place before the attack? Having a plan ready before the incident is paramount to your survival.

An occupied, parked cab is a “sitting-duck” target. Was he aware of where he parked his cab? Were there lights, cameras and witnesses nearby or did he park in a secluded, dark place without people around? Criminals view occupied cabs and rideshare vehicles as mobile ATMs.  Though this always amazes me – we are a 90% cashless society on transportation style transactions. 

Did the defender know that he had to adjust his point of aim when shooting through the windshield? Were the defenders doors locked, the windows up and his seatbelt on – does that make it easier or harder to get to your gun? Wear a holster so you have your gun with you when he got out of the car in a hurry.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The defender had a dangerous job. He/she carried a gun at work and probably had a plan for if they were attacked.
• The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to his/her life. 
• The defender drew their gun and fired multiple shots hitting the attacker.
• The defender stopped shooting when the attacker turned away and the threat had stopped.
• The defender did not pursue the attacker.
• The defender stayed at the scene, called 911, put the gun away so as not to present a threat to the police when they arrived and he gave a brief statement. 

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Drawing and shooting a handgun while seated in a car is not easy. It takes training and practice to do it quickly and safely. Did he have a plan?
• An occupied, parked cab is a “sitting-duck” target. Where did he park his cab? Were there lights, cameras and witnesses nearby or did he park in a secluded, dark place without people around? Criminals view occupied cabs and rideshare vehicles as mobile ATMs. 
• Did the defender have the training to know how to shoot through the car’s doors, windows and windshield? Did he know that the window’s metal crank system or electric motors can stop his bullets? Did he know how the glass can deflect the bullet’s trajectory? Did he know that he had to adjust his point of aim when shooting through the windshield?
• Did the defender have his doors locked, the windows up and his seatbelt on? Was the engine running while the car was parked? Could he have safely driven off instead of getting into a gunfight?
•  Where did he keep his gun so it was accessible while seated in the car? Did he wear a holster so he had his gun with him when he got out of the car? Did he use a shoulder holster, a hip holster or a car-mounted holster? Did he have one gun on him and one in the car as well?

Rob- Where are we going next?
Amanda- Our third story happened in Jackson, Mississippi.

Rob- First this message from the Buckeye Firearms Foundation.

https://fastersaveslives.org/

Rob- Third story-  Are you armed at home?

It is about two in the morning and you’re waiting up for your family to arrive home. 

You hear your husband and your son drive up to the house and park their car. You look outside and see three masked men run up to your family. The strangers are armed, and your husband and son raise their hands in the air. You grab your gun and run outside. You shoot your attackers. They run. So do your husband and your son as the attackers shoot back. The three of you run inside and call 911.

Police arrive and you put your gun away. The officers find one of your attackers on the street. The three of you give a statement to the officers. EMS declares one of your attackers dead at the scene.

The officers find a second attacker on the next block. The third one got away. You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda-  Fortunately, the defender was watching and aware of both her husband and son as they arrived home. How many times are you in the basement, doing laundry, making coffee and miss the arrival of someone expected?  The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her family’s lives so she grabbed her gun and quickly engaged the attackers. The defender, her husband and her son all retreated to the interior of the house and were able to call 911. She also had the wisdom to put her gun away when police arrived and they all gave brief statements.

I have to note that the defender stopped three armed attackers at a distance in the dark. Well done.

Rob- Is there more that we could do to protect our family?

Amanda-  First, I’d like it if the husband and son were armed themselves. After being robbed, I bet they do too.

I love that the defender was able to get to her gun so quickly. I noticed she immediately went outside to engage the attackers. Could she have engaged the attackers from inside of the home where she would be concealed or did she need to get closer to get a better shot?

When she went outside, did she use cover or concealment to prevent herself from being shot? I want the husband and son to move to cover outside instead of running into the house during the gunfight. People instinctively equate their home with safety. Learn the difference between cover and concealment. In a gunfight, the primary goal is to keep from getting shot even if you are armed.

The first goal is to not get shot. The second goal is to stop the attack. Sometimes that means we have to slow down and get good hits on the attackers even though our heart is racing.

Rob- When do you talk to your students about using cover and concealment, and when would they learn to shoot accurately in low-light conditions?

Amanda-  its a discussion in all of my classes.   If the bad guy can’t see you, statistics and data prove that they don’t attempt to shoot into or through cover, even though its not bulletproof. 

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Fortunately, the defender was watching and aware of both her husband and son arriving home.
• The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her family’s lives. She grabbed her gun and quickly engaged the attackers.
• The defender, her husband and her son retreated to the safety of their house and called 911.
• She put her gun away when police arrived and they all gave brief statements.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

1. The defender grabbed her gun and went outside to engage the attackers. Could she have engaged the attackers from inside of the home where she would be concealed? When she went outside, did she use cover or concealment to prevent herself from being shot? Did she go outside in order to get closer or a better angle? 
2. Did the defender turn on exterior lights? Did they have motion-detecting floodlights? You have to be able to identify your target(s) and sometimes just the lights coming on stops an attack.
3. Could the husband and son have moved to cover outside instead of running into the house during the gunfight? Was there a block/masonry set of steps or wall nearby? A tree? A pile of dirt? Could they have used their car’s wheels or engine compartment as cover instead of risking retreating to the house? Running to the house exposed them to being shot. Even when they made it to the house they weren’t safe since most exterior house walls are not bulletproof. They only provide concealment. If they had stayed at the car, they would have had some cover. People instinctively equate their home with safety- it’s not true. Learn the difference between cover and concealment. 
4. In a gunfight, the primary goal is to keep from getting shot even if you are armed. Moving to cover/concealment is more important than shooting back. The second goal is to stop the threat whether that involves shooting or not.  
5. The defender fired multiple shots at three attackers and only hit one of them. In a gunfight, only good hits count. 

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?
Amanda- Our fourth story took place in Butler, Pennsylvania.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you arrive home?

You and your girlfriend are both at home after work. You’re about to make dinner when you hear a loud bang from the basement. You both go down the basement stairs to see what is going on. You see a stranger in your basement. You shout for him to leave, but he stays put. Your girlfriend runs up stairs to grab her phone and to call 911. You go upstairs and grab your gun. You go back downstairs and tell the intruder to stay away. He does for a minute. You notice that he has a half-empty bottle of alcohol with him. He gets angry and moves toward you. You fire a warning shot next to him. That doesn’t stop him. You shoot him and he falls down. He starts to get up and you kick him, so he stays down.

Police arrive and arrest your intruder. You and your girlfriend give brief statements to the police. Your intruder broke in through the basement door. Your intruder is wanted for outstanding warrants for felony burglary. He is facing additional charges of felony burglary when he is released from the hospital. You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda-  I am glad when the defenders heard a noise they became aware and alert and they did not ignore it. They investigated the noise together as a team and when they found the threat, they gave firm, loud instructions to the intruder to leave. A loud commanding voice can go a long way to prevent a situation. One of the defenders retreated and started calling 911 while the other retreated and grabbed a gun. They gave commands to the intruder to stand still and show his hands.

The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when the intruder refused commands and moved towards them. He shot the intruder until the threat was over. Well done

Rob- What would you do in that situation?

Amanda- The first thing the defender should do is make sure they have their firearm on them and ready to go if they need it   You own a gun, you hear a bump in the night and you go to look WITHOUT your gun,  this sounds like the part of the horror movie where the audience is shouting “Don’t go down there”. 

The defenders worked together as a team but they mistakenly didn’t take their equipment with them when they first encountered the intruder. Best practices says that if you don’t have to protect someone who is elsewhere in the house, you should retreat to a defensible place, barricade the door, call 911 and prepare to ambush the intruder if they come in after you. The next best thing you can do is to investigate with another person who is armed and trained. You bring your friends, your guns, a phone and a flashlight. Remember, you are possibly engaging with an unknown number of intruders. You don’t know exactly where they are and you don’t know if or how they are armed.

The website article says that the defender “asked” the intruder to stay put and show him his hands. I teach my students this. You are in a life-and-death situation so you use a forceful voice to command compliance, so ASK in a very loud voice.  

Many times, just presenting a firearm and showing the bad guys that you are resolute can get them to stop their threat without firing a shot. Criminals fear an armed homeowner more than they do the police.

The defender fired a warning shot. This is almost never a good idea. The use of warning shots is not only unwise but also illegal in every state except Florida. Make sure you study and know your state’s laws.

Pennsylvania, like many other states, has a stand your ground law. That law removes the requirement for the defender to retreat in his home before using deadly force. Approximately 12 states still have an actual “duty to retreat” laws. Again, we need to take a class or check with a lawyer to learn the law where you live.

Rob- The duty to retreat may mean taking a half step backward, or it may mean moving as far as you can go safely. The difference is important.

Amanda- I want to know if they could have backed up to gain some distance. Distance and cover are our best friends. The defender got close enough to the intruder to kick him so the bad guy might have been able to wrestle the gun away from the defender. One of a  gun’s biggest advantages is that it can be used from a distance and still be effective. It is an advanced skill, but you want to learn to shoot from a retention position if you are close to an attacker and you can’t gain some distance from them.

The defender gave an interview to the news media- not a good idea. Lawyers make their living keeping people out of legal trouble. Anyone, including family, giving detailed interviews/statements to the police, the news media or posting on social media without a lawyer can seriously undermine the defender’s case in criminal and civil court. Anything you say/post or anyone you’ve talked to says can be used against you in court. If you are going to use a gun for self-defense, get a self-defense legal plan, talk to your lawyer before making any statements and use your right to remain silent! As U.S. Lawshield says: “Lawyer up and shut up!”

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The defenders heard a noise and became aware and alert. They did not ignore it.
• They investigated the noise together as a team.
• According to the website news story, they ASKED the intruder to leave and show his hands.
• One of the defenders retreated and started calling 911 while the other retreated and grabbed a gun.
• They tried ASKING the intruder to stand still and show his hands.
• The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when the intruder refused requests and moved towards them. He shot the intruder until the threat was over.
• The defenders stayed at the scene and gave the police a brief statement. 

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The basement door was locked and the intruder had to make noise in order to enter. This gave the defenders a warning. The first step in home security is always to reinforce your perimeter. This gives you time to react and the noise of breaking through the door/window gives you a critical warning. 
• The defenders worked together as a team but they mistakenly didn’t take their equipment with them when they first encountered the intruder. Best practices says that if you don’t have to protect someone who is elsewhere in the house, you should retreat to a defensible place, barricade the door, call 911 and prepare to ambush the intruder if they come in after you. The next best thing you can do is to investigate with another person who is armed and trained. You bring your friends, your guns, a phone and a flashlight. Remember, you are possibly engaging with an unknown number of intruders. You don’t know exactly where they are and you don’t know if or how they are armed. 
• The website article says that the defender “asked” the intruder to stay put and show him his hands. Right idea- wrong method! When you are in a life-and-death situation, you use a forceful voice to command compliance. Many times, just presenting a firearm and showing the bad guys that you are resolute can get them to stop their threat without firing a shot. 
• Criminals fear an armed homeowner more than they do the police.
• The defender fired a warning shot. This is almost never a good idea. The use of warning shots is not only unwise but also illegal in every state except one. Florida allows warning shots but even there the use is highly restricted.  Make sure you study and know your state’s laws.
• Pennsylvania, like many other states, has The Castle Doctrine. This part of the law removes the requirement for the defender to retreat from his home before using deadly force. Approximately 12 states still have “duty to retreat” laws. Take a class or check with a lawyer to learn the Use of Deadly Force laws for your jurisdiction. Even though it was legal for the defenders to re-engage the intruder with a gun, was it the best decision? 
• Could the defenders have used cover/concealment when engaging the intruder? Could they have backed up to gain some distance? Distance and cover are your best friends. The defender got close enough to the intruder to kick him so the bad guy might have been able to wrestle the gun away from the defender. One of a  gun’s biggest advantages is that it can be used from a distance and still be effective. 
• Learn to shoot from a retention position if you are close to an attacker and you can’t gain some distance from them.
• The defender gave an interview to the news media- not a good idea. Lawyers make their living keeping people out of legal trouble. Anyone, including family, giving detailed interviews/statements to the police, the news media or posting on social media without a lawyer can seriously undermine the defender’s case in criminal and civil court. Anything you say/post or anyone you’ve talked to says can be used against you in court. If you are going to use a gun for self-defense, get a self-defense legal plan, talk to your lawyer before making any statements and use your right to remain silent! As U.S. Lawshield says: “Lawyer up and shut up!”

Exit-

Rob- Amanda, that wraps up our episode. Thank you so much for helping us today. Where can we learn more about you?

Amanda- My eye on the target radio show is syndicated coast to coast on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject that you can find at DCProject.info, and  I’m on TV at the OpsLens channel with Eye on the Target on Sundays. 

Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV show, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage.

Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free.
Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.
We’re also available on
Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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