Episode 334 with Andee Reardon

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Introduction-

Rob- Welcome to episode 334 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. A lot of things have happened in Maine since we’ve talked. Tell us about it.

Andee- Hey Rob! It’s been a while. I’ve been super busy with life and meeting the demand for training here in Maine after the active shooter situation in Lewiston. There’s a lot of people waking up to the fact that they are their own first responder and they want to be prepared to protect themselves. I had the honor to work with one of the women who survived the attack to teach her a handgun lesson and help her find the right firearm for her. She said she never wants to feel helpless again.

How about you?

Rob- I try and work out every day. I know you do too. Being fit lets us pay attention when we’re tired.

How do we fit a gun to a new gun owner? Is it like a shoe salesman? Is it like an optometrist, the gun on your left, or the gun on your right?

I’ve been dry practicing and I’m still waiting to get my gun from ATEI in Michigan. We didn’t have any new ratings or comments on iTunes. Again, I want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. All this can be yours.

Andee- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent news stories to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at work?

You are working in a liquor store. It is late on a weekday night and you’re about to close the store. Two men come inside. One of them draws a gun and demands the money in the cash register. You back away. One of the robbers hits you in the head with a bottle. You present your firearm and shoot at your attackers until they run. You stay inside and call 911 for help.

EMTs take you to the hospital in serious condition. Later, you give a statement to the police. It isn’t clear if you have security video. 8 liquor stores were robbed on the  northside in the last month. Most stores are closing earlier.

You are not charged with a crime.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• • The defender knew that he had a dangerous job. He probably also knew that other stores in his area had been robbed so he decided to have a gun at work.

• The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. 

• The defender stayed in the fight even after he was injured.
  He presented his gun and shot at the attackers. 

• The defender stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store.
  The defender did not chase the attackers. He called 911 for help.
  

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• The defender went through the process of getting a FOID card, buying a gun and learned how to use it. Maybe he had a license to carry as well.

• Hopefully, the defender had a plan since his job put him in danger on a daily basis. Did he visualize numerous possible scenarios in his mind in order to build his “Library of Responses”? That’s a critical step in inoculating himself to the effects of adrenaline and stopping the brain from freezing in a crisis. Creating a defensive plan in the middle of an attack is next to impossible. 

• Could the defender have used “Tactical Patience” or distractions to keep from getting into a hand-to-hand confrontation? Could he have thrown the money on the floor or knocked a bottle off the counter as a distraction?

• Did the defender move as he drew his gun? The first rule of self-defense is not to get shot.

• Did the defender know close quarters techniques including retention shooting?

• Did the defender carry his gun on him or was the gun staged under the cash register? Why not both? Carry a small, highly concealable micro semi-automatic or revolver and also have a larger, double-stack pistol or short-barrel shotgun under the counter or in the back room. Multiple guns gives you many options. “Two is one, and one is none.”

• Once the robbers left, the clerk should have: locked all doors, moved any customers to safety and turned off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends wouldn’t have easy targets. The threat is not over until the cops arrive.

• Make sure your hands are empty and visible when the police arrive. Holding a  gun or a cell phone can get you shot. 

Andee- The defender probably saw the news and knew that other stores in his area had been robbed. Before the attack, he got his firearms owners ID card so he could go buy a gun. The night that he was attacked, he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the robbers presented a firearm and then hit him in the head with a bottle. If you doubt how serious that can be, then fill an empty wine bottle with water and go hit the side of a 2×4 with the side of the bottle. Look at the bruise on the wood and then figure out what that will do to your skull and to your brain.

The defender stayed in the fight even after he was hit in the head. I teach my students, when it comes to life or death, quitting means game over. You fight and stay in it until you are safe.

He presented his gun and shot at his attackers. He then stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store. (This is a very important piece if you want to be seen as the good guy in the eyes of the law. You MUST stop shooting the moment the threat has ceased.)

Rather than chase the bad guys, he stayed inside and called 911 for help. (You’re not superman or a police officer, it’s not your job to catch the bad guy.)

Rob- Are there other things you want us to do that were not mentioned in the news reports?

Andee- It is hard to get your carry permit in Chicago. It’s worth the trouble. I want him to have his carry permit so he can carry all the time, even when he carries trash out to the dumpster late at night.

I want you to have a plan. It is like having a cheat sheet of options. Part of having a plan is also establishing limits that say what you’ll do and when you’ll do it. When will I yell stop when two customers come in looking like robbers? When will I present my gun and where will I move? What will I say? You have to walk through that plan often enough that your reactions are a habit rather than a thought. Situational training doesn’t have to always take place at the range. Walking through a scenario in your head creates neural pathways in your brain, allowing you to react quicker if you’re presented with a similar scenario in real life.

Rob- Isn’t walking through your place of work the best simulator we could ask for?

Andee- I can be, particularly if you have a co-worker who works through the scenario with you.

Another thing I think of reading this story is “be careful about letting people into your danger zone” One of the attackers was close enough to hit the defender with a bottle. We should be very careful as to who we let in our bubble. I often show my students in class how fast someone can get to you from 25 feet away, about the same time it takes someone skilled to draw their firearm. Situational awareness should be warning us whenever someone is within that distance. We should be prepared to “move off the line” if the threat makes a charge. Could the defender have dropped the money tray and a bottle on the floor and backed away? That gives him a moment as the armed attackers are distracted.

If you have to present your firearm, then I want you to move as you do. Don’t just stand in the open. Find cover.

I want you to have close quarters practice so you can shoot without moving your firearm to full extension. That is accurate enough at short distances, and you don’t hand your gun to your attackers. You should practice hand-to-hand self defense techniques that will give you space to safely draw without your attacker taking your gun from you.

I also want you to practice shooting from different positions. Learn to shoot while you’re crouched behind your sales counter. Can you make your counter bulletproof by covering the outside face with brick or stone?

We also have to talk about the elephant in the room. Was the defender armed, or was the gun under the counter? I want you armed so you are protected. If you want to put a larger firearm under the counter that is fine too. You can also cache some non-lethal options like pepper spray are a great addition to your self defense tool box.

Once the robbers left, the clerk still had some work to do. I want you to lock all doors. Move the customers to the back of the store and turn off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends don’t have easy targets.

Make sure your hands are completely empty when you unlock the door to let the police inside. And then make sure you and your witnesses know what to say, and what not to say.

Rob- That is a lot to remember.

Andee- It is, but you don’t learn it all at once. You are learning reactions rather than thoughts, and once the bad guys leave then you have a moment to think about what to do next. Even then, you’re choosing from a menu you’ve already rehearsed.

Rob- We’re at home, at work, at school or out in public. It seems that we need a separate plan for each one.

Andee- Yes and no. Most of the parts are the same or similar. What might change is our decision points. We’re more alarmed to a stranger walking into our home than we are to a stranger walking into a retail store.

Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to go on?

Andee- Our second story happened in Los Angeles, California.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you arrive home?

You just drove home and closed the gate behind you. It is 7:30 in the evening and you walk up to your front door. Two men run up behind you. One of them pokes you in the back with his gun. You are carrying a soft drink cup in your hand. You throw your soft drink into the robber’s face and you step aside. You draw your firearm and shoot at your attackers. They run. The narrow walkway leading to your front door gives you no place to hide.

You don’t chase your attackers down the street. You go inside and ask your wife to call 911. You also check on your daughter. Both of them are unhurt.

You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You show them your carry permit and the home security video of the attack. They see your attackers jump over your front wall after you parked your car.

You are not charged with a crime.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked. 

• When he realized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation he used throwing his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. These actions broke the attacker’s OODA loop and gave the defender time to draw his gun.

• The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911 while he checked on his family. 

• The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• According to the news report, the defender was using earbuds when he was attacked. This reduced his situational awareness to only what he could see in front of him and gave the attackers the opportunity to put a gun to his back without being detected. 

• When did the defender pull the trigger? Before or after the attackers turned and ran off? Did the attackers shoot back at the defender as they were running away? These are critical questions that need to be answered in order to determine if the defender’s shooting at the attackers was legally justified. 

• Did the defender consult a lawyer before talking to the police? He should have.

• According to the news report, the defender made multiple statements to the media. This can determine whether you go to trial or not. Best practices says that you only give detailed statements to the police or the media through your lawyer. Whatever you say to the police or the media can be used against you. 

Andee- It isn’t directly mentioned in the story, but it implies that the defender’s front door was locked. That kept the attackers from simply pushing their way inside. The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked. I don’t like that he was distracted by earbuds, criminals are looking for targets who are unaware and earbuds put a big red target on your head. Don’t do that. Also, don’t go to condition white (unaware) as soon as you get home, you’re not home safe until you’re inside and safe.

The defender recognized an attack and threw his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. Those actions broke the attacker’s plans and gave the defender time and space to draw his gun and shoot.

The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911. He checked on his family and holstered his gun. 

The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up for your lawyer.

 Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Andee-  The defender was startled and waited to shoot. We have several drills where we turn, present, and shoot. Like I said before, we need new habits.

The defender talked to the news reporters and I want you not to do that. Talk to your lawyer and let your lawyer decide if he wants to talk to reporters.

 This defender has a long legal road ahead of him, we wish him the best and are happy he survived.

Rob- Where are we headed next?

Andee- Our third story happened in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- First this message from FASTER Colorado.

https://fastercolorado.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?

https://www.inquirer.com/crime/philadelphia-pizza-shop-shooting-robbery-20231105.html

You work for your dad at a small pizza restaurant. It is Saturday night and it is dark outside. The evening rush has slowed down but there is still a lot to do. Two men come in and you get ready to take their order. Most people want their order To-Go. These two are wearing hoodies and masks. They are also wearing rubber surgical gloves. One of them draws a gun from his pants and shoots into the ceiling. The armed man moves behind the counter and pushes you out of the way to get to the cash register. You have no place to run.

You draw your legally concealed firearm and shoot your attacker until he drops his gun. Now the attacker falls down. The other attacker runs from the store and you don’t shoot him.

The news story doesn’t explain how you get out from behind the counter, but you stay at the scene and call 911. You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You identify other witnesses. They agree that the robber shot first.

Your attacker died at the scene with several shots to the upper chest and head. Police are looking for security video from other stores in the area. You are not charged, but the police take both your gun and the attacker’s gun as evidence.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• • Pizza shops get robbed a lot. Fortunately, the defender was armed when he was robbed. POGO (Pants On… Gun On.)

• It sounds like the defender got out of the robber’s way and waited until the robber’s attention was on the money before drawing his gun. Then he shot the robber in the upper chest and the head. The goal is to neutralize the threat. 

• The defender was trapped behind the counter and could not move out of the way so he shot the robber until he dropped his gun and also collapsed. Sometimes this only takes one shot. Other times it might take many shots. You shoot until the threat is over. 

• The defender did not shoot at the other robber who was running away. 

• The defender did not pursue the second robber.

• The defender stayed at the scene, called 911, put his gun away, gave a statement to the police and pointed out witnesses. 

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• Most pizza shops and stores have more than one employee working at any one time. They should all be armed and have a plan. Two defenders working as a team are six times more effective than a single one.

• The defender had his gun on him, not under the counter. Carrying your gun means it’s always available when you need it. If you store your gun under the counter, maybe you can get to it and maybe you can’t.

• The defender did not try to use verbal commands. There is a time and a place for verbal commands but this situation wasn’t one of them. Once the bad guy’s gun is in his hand, the defender has to shoot first and move if possible. 

• The defender should have moved any customers to safety, locked all doors and moved away from lights and windows in case the other robber returned or if they had friends outside. 

• Hopefully, the defender has a back-up gun because he may not see his gun for months or even years. When the police take a gun for evidence in a trial, it doesn’t get returned until the trial is over. The criminal attackers will be out on bail long before the defender’s gun is returned so the defender may be defenseless. “Two is one and one is none.”

Andee- Shops that are open to the public late at night are at increased risk of robbery. This defender recognized the risks of running a family shop in Philadelphia and decided to go armed. He had his firearm on his person when the attackers entered the store.

We haven’t seen the video, but the defender could have been waiting his turn. The robber already had a gun in his hands. He shot into the ceiling so that everyone knew he was armed. The defender was trapped behind the counter by the robbers. It sounds like he waited until the robber was looking at the cash register. That is when he drew his gun and started firing. It is good that he didn’t try verbal commands.

Our defender kept firing until the threat was gone. That could be one shot or the entire magazine. The defender did not shoot the other attacker who was running away. 

The defender stayed at the shop and called 911 for help.

Rob-Are there other things you want your small business owners to do?

Andee- I’d like all of your employees to be armed. I’d like you to have a video system that shows your attackers and your defense.

Like the previous story, I want you to move your customers to safety, lock all your doors and move everyone away from lights and windows.

I also hope you have another gun you can bring to work tomorrow. 

Rob- I have a problem with some new gun owners. How do you convince gun owners that run a business that their gun isn’t magic?

Andee-  I try to convey how important training is. Like driving a stick shift, it’s going to take a while to operate it smoothly, in different environments and in different scenarios. Guns are the same. It’s an acquired and perishable skill. You must practice and train to keep it up.

I don’t know it all and I love being a student when I get the chance. I think everyone should take a training course every so often, regardless of your skill. You can always learn something new.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?
Andee- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?

You are part of the security team at church. A member of the church called the police and also called the church saying that someone had threatened the pastor that day. Another church member told you the suspect was outside in the parking lot. You grab a rifle and go outside to investigate. You see the suspect. You shout for him to stop. He runs at you with something in his hand. You shoot him twice until he stops. You stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help.

You put your gun down when officers arrive. Officers find a vape in the attacker’s hand, but no weapon. You give a statement to the officers. So do the other members of the security team. The officers collect statements from the attacker’s family and acquaintances that confirm the threats against the pastor and the church.

Your attacker was the son of a church member. He was arrested yesterday for stabbing a sword through a trailer. Police found psychotropic drugs in the attacker’s truck.

You are not charged with a crime.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• The defender was part of a church security team that worked well together to point out a possible threat.

• The defender encountered the suspect and tried using verbal commands but they failed.

• The suspect charged the defender who shot the suspect twice.

• The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over. He called 911.

• He put his gun down and gave a statement to the police. 

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

• Did the defender carry non-lethal weapons? Could he have stopped the attacker with pepper spray or by hitting him with the rifle butt?

• Was the suspect charging at the defender an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat? Could the defender articulate his reasons for using deadly force? Was disparity of force involved?

• Any threats the suspect made to others prior to the time he was shot do not justify use of deadly force by the defender.

• Did the defender misinterpret the vape device in the suspect’s hand as a weapon? Maybe the defender could have taken cover behind a car and waited to find out if the suspect had a weapon or not. Did the vape device look like a gun or a knife?

• How far away was the suspect when the defender shot him? Did the defender know about the Tueller drill?

• Could the defender have brought other members of the security team with him when he went to investigate?  

Andee- Way before that Sunday, the church thought that they might have a problem someday and they put a team in place. The security team had a way to collect information from the public and the police. The defender tried to use verbal commands when he saw the suspect. I don’t know if any other church members were outside, but I would have preferred everyone to lock themselves in the church and call the police. That may not have been feasible.

The defender did not let the suspect get within hand-to hand range. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped advancing.

The defender called 911 for help and put his gun down when the police arrived. He also gave a brief statement to the police. 

Rob- What else do you see here?

Andee- If you have self-defense insurance, ask them if you are covered if you’re part of a church security team. If you don’t have it, time to consider it.

You have to explain why you had to close the distance to the suspect in the parking lot. You have to explain why he was an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to innocent people. Not what you feared might happen later, but the threats you saw in that moment. That is a tough call and you absolutely must walk through those situations before they happen or you will freeze.

There is no doubt that the attacker meant ill will and was disturbed. Was he a lethal threat to any particular individual before you pulled the trigger? This could be the difference between going home and going to jail.

Rob- You phrased it differently, but those are the same requirements that I need to show if I use a firearm at home.

Andee- They are, but you know the people you expect to see in your home. Shopkeepers and church staff expect to see strangers every day, often strangers with problems. They have to show even more restraint.

It’s very important that your church security team knows more than just how to use a firearm… they should be training in emergency 1st aid and how to deescalate situations with verbal judo. They should also have a lockdown plan in place so if something is happening outside, they can stay safe until police arrive.

What a lot of people don’t know is, a majority of church shootings are not hate crimes or religion driven, they are domestic crimes. Family members attack other family members, ex husbands mad at a church that helped his ex wife leave, stuff like that. Churches should have a safety ministry for these people who are in danger and a safety plan should their stalker show up at church.

Many women are afraid to tell their pastor what’s going on at home, so having  a safety and security ministry trained to help them and being open about these issues will not only be a great asset to the community, but it helps keep the other members of the church safe too.

Something I learned training with Col Grossman, a lot of church shootings happen in the parking lot. Security teams who only prepare for emergencies indoors are only half prepared.

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee Reardon, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Andee- Look for me at East Coast School of Safety and on my facebook and Instagram pages with the same name.

Rob- After you look at Andee articles, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Andee- We share this podcast with you for free.
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Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. Happy Thanksgiving, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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