Episode 355 with Robyn Sandoval

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Introduction-

Rob- Welcome to episode 335 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse. We are joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval, and she has been busy.

Robyn- Hi, Rob.  I just got back from an instructor development class with Brian Hill of The Complete Combatant, and I’m leaving tomorrow to take a low-light class with Chris Cerino at Range Ready Studios near your neck of the woods. Not only do I love learning, but I appreciate showing my students that even instructors and professionals in the firearms industry have to carve out time for our own training. How about you?

Rob- I’ve been dry practicing. I’m still waiting to get my gun back from the shop. They say they have a new barrel on the way. I’m working on the FBI handgun qualification test.

We didn’t receive any new ratings or comments on iTunes or Facebook. I do want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. I’m retiring soon, so this can be yours.

Robyn- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, citizens defend themselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. In this episode, we’ll look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. Listeners can find links back to the original news articles on the podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Shady Cove, Oregon.

Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?

You are at home in bed. It is 2 in the morning when you hear someone break into your home. You arm yourself. Your attacker moves toward you and you shoot them. You stop shooting when they stop advancing. You step back and call 911.

You put your gun away when police arrive. The police call for a life-flight helicopter. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene.

You give a statement to the police. You show them how the intruder broke into your home. You identify your attacker and tell the police that you have a protective order against them.

You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- Unfortunately this is a common scenario because that protective order is just a piece of paper. So let’s look at what else our defender did to protect herself. First, she recognized a problem and sought legal help. Getting the order of protection or restraining order was a good step because that gave her legal protection that the attacker would be breaking the law by contacting her or if he was even near her, for example, within 500 feet. But most importantly, she had a firearm and learned how to store it, access it, and use it if needed.

On the day of the attack, she had locked her doors. She reacted to the sound of a breakin. She armed herself. She defended herself when the attacker moved toward her. She stopped shooting when the attack stopped. She stayed at the scene and called for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived, and she gave them a brief statement.

Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news report that you’d like us to do if we have a stalker?

Robyn-  There may have been other options that could have given her more time to wake up and respond. Maybe a doorbell cam, motion alarm, or barking dog could have given her a warning. Alarms are affordable and you can put a motion detector on your outside doors even if you are a renter. You could also even put a motion detector inside your home, as well as motion activated lights. 

It’s also good for her to have a community of support. Hopefully she told her neighbors, friends, employer, pastor, and others that she had a stalker and had taken out a restraining order against him. 

Of course, always keep your gun accessible to you and on-body in a holster whenever possible. Keep your doors and windows locked. When you’re in an interior room with a locking door, go ahead and lock it as well. Have the volume on your phone turned up so that you will hear it or be awakened by it when your security app discovers motion. 

Most importantly, have a plan. Be able to arm yourself and move to a secure position in the room. Turn on the lights. Call 911. Shout that you are armed, and that you’ve called the police. Stop any attacker that comes through your bedroom door.

Because you’re at an increased risk, it is doubly important that you have a self-defense legal insurance plan. In this situation, it’s not just about surviving an attack in that moment; it’s surviving the legal process afterwards and ensuring that your future is safe as well.

So, make your legal plan part of your emergency action plan. Know what facts that you want to point out to officers. For example, that you shouted for the attacker to stop (so that your neighbors might be able to corroborate that they heard shouts before they heard shots, or that the alarm system may have recorded your shouts, or they may also be on the 911 call). Point out concise facts: this is the broken door where the attacker forced entry, this is the person against whom I have a restraining order, etc.

Rob- Why are those statements so important?

Robyn- The police are trying to figure out if there was a crime, and if so, then to collect evidence for a prosecution. You want to identify yourself, and give evidence that you are the defender rather than the attacker. The more obvious it is that you are the defender, then the more evidence the police will find to support your case.

That said, once you point out the evidence, then you remain silent until your attorney is with you.

Rob- There is a lot that we can learn here even if we don’t have a stalker. When do your students learn about defense in the home and about talking to the police?

Robyn-  When someone begins contemplating a gun for home defense, whether it’s when they’re purchasing a new firearm or just making an emergency action plan, these are important factors that have to be considered from the beginning. Safe storage, accessibility, cover and concealment inside the home, deterring factors or barriers outside of the home, security features, lights, mirrors to view around corners… all of these things can be considered as part of the plan.

As for talking to the police, most of the time it’s important to learn what NOT to say as much as what to say. In that critical incident, a defender is going to be stirred with a lot of adrenaline and emotion. Training to stay mindful and focused throughout the entire process is critical.

Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to move on?

Robyn- Our second story was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

• Locked her doors

• Got a restraining order. 

• Bought a gun and learned how to use it.

• Brought her gun when she investigated a noise.

• Shot her attacker when she recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.

• Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker.

• Called 911, put her gun away so she met the police with empty hands.

• She showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement. 

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound. 

• The defender had a restraining order on this person. She should have told all of her friends and neighbors about it as a safeguard. 

• Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone.

• Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home on Thanksgiving?

You are at home in the evening. The news story doesn’t say if you have holiday guests with you, but your neighbors in the apartment complex are coming and going. It is about 7:30 when you hear a crashing sound. You grab your gun and go to investigate. You see an armed stranger standing in your apartment. You’re being robbed. He moves toward you. You shoot him until he stops advancing. You stop shooting. You back up and call 911 for help.

You open the apartment complex access door so the police can get inside. You put your gun away and set down the phone to talk to the officers. They police officers disarm your attacker. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene from gunshot wounds to the head. You give the police a statement. You show them your shattered front door. The officers check the video security files in the apartment complex. They assume your attacker snuck in behind another resident or behind a guest who was visiting for Thanksgiving.

The police take your firearm as evidence. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- Like our earlier story, our defender knew that she had a greater risk of a home invasion, so she was prepared. Philadelphia crime rates are very high, so she bought a gun and had it with her in her home, even on Thanksgiving. She locked her doors so she knew who was in her home. She responded to a strange sound rather than excusing the sound as a noise from the party next door.

She defended herself. She identified an armed, unavoidable threat, and she took action. Then stayed at the scene so the robber’s accomplice couldn’t change the evidence like grabbing the robber’s gun and running away with it. She got help on the way and she talked briefly with the officers when they arrived.

Rob- The story says that the defender shot the attacker in the head. Talk about that.

Robyn- Best practice is to aim for the largest target so we’re most likely to get the hits we need. On a human threat, that would be placing your sights at the heart/lungs area. However, your gun is going to be in your line of sight, which means you’re going to aim at what you’re looking at.

In force-on-force scenarios, students often put rounds into the attacker’s hands because they are focused on the gun or other weapon. If the attacker had his gun in front of his face, then the defender may have shot towards the attacker’s gun and made impact into the head. That might have been where her eyes went in a moment of stress. There are times, however, when aiming at a smaller target like the head might be a better option than the torso. It’s good to take training classes to learn different scenarios and how to manage them.

Rob- What would you tell your students to do as they clean up after Thanksgiving?

Robyn-  Get used to wearing your firearm in a holster on your body, and keep it on you while you’re going about your day… even as you do Thanksgiving dishes or put up your holiday decorations. The holidays bring out a lot of emotion in people, and can be difficult for some, leading to drinking in excess or substance abuse. This can lead to increased crime, so be prepared.

Encourage your adult family members to also carry and be trained. Concealed carry should be a nonissue at your home, so that your guests know that you are armed, and that they can feel comfortable coming to your house while they are armed. Make sure you know the laws of your area so that you are in compliance as you move in and out of your home. If you need a carry permit to walk your guests out to their car, get one so that your lifestyle isn’t interrupted and you don’t have to take off your gun to do it.

As we’ve said, have an emergency action plan. Know where you can find cover, or retreat to a back room and lock the door. We don’t know the precise details of this attack. Maybe she was shooting from her kitchen and it was safer to use the kitchen doorway as concealment than to retreat to the bedroom. Move out of sight (concealment), and behind something bulletproof (cover), so you are hard to shoot.

Criminals can often get through security doors.

Rob- How many of your students have a spare gun to use the next day?

Robyn- If you use your firearm in an incident, it’s going to be seized into evidence by the police. Have another firearm to use for your concealed carry. Don’t become complacent and think that lightning can’t strike you twice. Always be ready to protect yourself and those you love.

Rob- Where are we headed next?

Robyn- Our third story happened in Granada Hills, California.

Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership

https://drgo.us/

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

• Bought a gun and learned how to use it. Hopefully he had a plan.

• Brought his gun when he investigated a noise.

• Shot the intruder when he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.

• Shot the intruder in the head. Was that intentional or by accident? Best practices says we aim for upper center chest unless the bad guy is wearing body armor. Then we shoot for the head. 

• Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker.

• Called 911, put his gun away so he met the police with empty hands.

• He showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement. 

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• • “Anyone. Anywhere. Anytime!” Criminals don’t take Thanksgiving off. 

• Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound. 

• Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone.

• Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime.  

• The police took the defender’s gun as evidence. This is a common practice. If there’s a trial, the defender may not see his gun again for months or even years. You need a back-up gun since the bad guy or his friends may come to visit you long before your gun is returned. And remember, many states require waiting periods or re-application of FOID cards before purchasing another gun. “Two is one and one is none.”

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? (Youtube video)

You’re at home. It is about 8pm and your security alarm says there was movement outside. You check the app on your phone and see three young men walking in your backyard. They are wearing hoodies, masks and gloves. You see them try to open your doors and windows. You try to call 911, but you can’t dial as you watch the intruders. You grab your gun. You see the intruders outside your back door. You move toward the door and shout at them. Then you open the door. Your attackers run when they hear the door open. You go outside and chase the robbers out of your yard.

You go back inside and call 911. You are transferred to a non-emergency number. The police pick up the line after 45 minutes. You ask to file a report. Police never come to your address to retrieve the video or take a report.

You look online and see a half dozen similar attacks to yours in the last month. The news calls them the Dinner Time Robberies.

Tag- No Shots Fired

Robyn- It’s good that our defender had the alarms, the app on his phone, and his firearm. I like our defender had a plan and a gun in his gun safe. I love that he had a security system and his doors and windows were locked. It was excellent that he paid attention when he heard the alarm. I’m glad he tried to call 911 for help. He shouted for the intruders to leave.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Robyn- I would first like for him to not open the door. Keep a barrier between you and an attacker at all times. However, there are several teachable moments here. 

There are always things that you discover when you walk through your plan. Do you have your phone with you? It takes you time to open your app on your phone. What if you discover a problem and your gun safe is at the other end of the house? It takes time to open your gun safe. Do you have your gun on your hip? Can you watch your security system and does the security system have a panic button that calls 911 for you? What options do you have for connecting with 911 without losing visibility through your app?

Troubleshoot your plan so you don’t discover these things when there are three robbers at your back door.

Rob- What else could we do to stay safe in our home? 

Robyn- I loved that the defender had over a dozen cameras outside. Let’s also turn on the outside lights. Let’s grab our gun and shout that we’ve called the police. Stay away from the windows where the bad guys can see you and shoot at you.

And again, don’t open the door! If they break in, then you are positioned to defend yourself. But don’t approach them, don’t chase them, don’t run across the street in your underwear with a gun in your hand. That is what aggressors do. Don’t act like a bad guy; be a responsible defender. 

Rob- What else do you see here?

Robyn- After you are safe, then call your lawyer. Do not provide extra information to the police. Do not contact the media. Leave that to your legal team to address.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Shelby, North Carolina.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

• Had a plan. He had a security system with multiple cameras/lights.

• Paid attention when his security app notified him of movement.

• Took his gun out of his safe and was prepared to use it.

• Tried to call 911 but his security app locked him out. Even an old, unused cell phone can be used to call 911 so keep one charged at all times where you think you may need it. 

• Shouted at the intruders to leave.

• Left a message with his police department about the incident.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• According to the news report, the defender opened his door and pursued the intruders with his gun. BAD IDEA! If he had used his gun, he would have been seen as the aggressor. And he also put himself in grave danger. He had no way of knowing how many other bad guys there were, where they were or if they were armed. He could have walked into an ambush. 

• The defender gave a video interview to the TV station. This is very dangerous. Did he check with his lawyer first? The news video included showing the defender leaving his house and running after the intruders while he was holding a gun. In many jurisdictions, this could be considered assault with a deadly weapon by the defender! He could be criminally charged for this.

• The defender had multiple cameras but he didn’t use them correctly. He followed the bad guys around his house where they could have shot him through a window or door. If you can see them, they can also see you. He should have retreated to a defensible room, barricaded the door, turned on the lights, called 911 and covered the door from concealment or cover. If the intruders broke through his room’s door he would be able to defend himself from only one bad guy at a time as they came through the “fatal funnel” door. One defender can stop many intruders with this tactic. 

• The defender had a gun but he had to unlock a safe in order to get at it when he needed it. POGO- Pant On, Gun On. 

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?

You’re walking down the street. The sunset was about an hour ago so it is fairly dark. You see one man walk up to a man who is standing on the sidewalk. The first man pulls a gun from his pocket and shoots the man who was standing there. The victim puts up his arms and is shot in the face and in the shoulder as he turns.

You have your North Carolina concealed carry permit. You are armed. You shoot the attacker until he drops his firearm. You stop shooting when the attack stops. You call 911 and ask for help.

You stay at the scene. You reholster your firearm before the officers arrive. You give a brief statement to the officers. You show them your identification and your carry permit. EMTs take both of the wounded men to the hospital for treatment. The attacker was shot five times.

Later, the police reported that your attacker was the aggressor. Warrants have been issued for felony assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, inflicting serious injury, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, and assault by pointing a gun.

Robyn- It’s good that the defender had her carry permit and she had her carry gun on even though she was simply walking down the street. She paid attention to the people around her as she walked. She recognized that the first man represented an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to the person who didn’t start the fight.

She shot her attacker and it sounds like all of her shots were hits. That tells us that she trained and practiced fairly often. She recognized when to stop shooting. She called for help and had empty hands when the officers arrived.

Because she had her carry permit, the arriving officers knew that she had a clean criminal record. That made it much easier for the police to figure out who the bad guys were and who the good guys were.

Rob- We often tell people to use verbal commands. Is that appropriate in this case?

Robyn- What is moral to do, what is legal to do, and what are you willing to do? Maybe you’re willing to let a victim be shot to death until you’ve tried verbal commands. Maybe you identified the legal requirements to use lethal force and shoot your attacker from across the street. Maybe verbal commands would have put you at greater risk.

Everything happens in context. You are not required to say anything as long as there is a lethal threat against an innocent victim.

Rob- We don’t get to practice recognizing those situations very often. How can your students know what to do in public?

Robyn- You’re body can’t go where your mind hasn’t been before. You need to study armed defense. You need to imagine what you might see and consider what you might do. You can do that alone, with a training partner, or in a class.

You practice now so you won’t freeze or panic. It is better to practice when we have time.

Rob- What else do you see?

Robyn- Defense of a third party is always risky. You don’t know the full story. You don’t know what the victim will say to the police. You don’t even know if there are more parties out of your view.

The news doesn’t say if the defender moved to cover. That should be part of your training, to be able to move to safety and put barriers between you and any additional threat.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

• Had a carry permit and a gun with him when he was walking on the street after dark.

• Paid attention when he heard two men arguing. 

• Recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.

• Shot the attacker five times (good accuracy) after he saw the attacker shoot the victim.

• Stopped shooting after the attacker dropped his gun. 

• Stayed at the scene, called 911, holstered his gun and gave a statement to the police. 

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Did the defender have a flashlight with him? Did he know how to use it properly? Always carry a gun, ammo, phone and a flashlight. Carrying a knife is also a good idea. 

• This is a third party defense which can be very risky. The defender shot the attacker assuming that he was a bad guy. He gambled his life, health, wealth and freedom on his ability to come to the correct conclusion without complete information.  What if the attacker had been a plain-clothes cop making an arrest and the victim had made a furtive movement? Luckily for the defender, that wasn’t the case here. 

• Did the defender move to cover or concealment before shooting? The number one rule of self-defense is not to get shot. If you interrupt a criminal during the commission of a crime, they will probably shoot at you as well. Prepare for it. 

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country.

Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free.
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Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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